Talk:Kayı (tribe)

=Comments= All the information in this text is valid. With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 16:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Deliogul, as the writer of the article i think like you:) But citation needed thing, is for adding a reference (english) to support "what is said" in the article:) --Ugur Basak 18:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Gundoglu's edits take Inalcik's opinion as a historical fact. Inalcik and company claim that the Kayi tribe is not related to the Ottomans, and they base this claim on the fact that they don't find such a genealogy in an important early history of the Ottomans. However, the Kayi are not an especially significant tribe. Their only significance comes from the fact that the Ottomans claim descent from them, so why would the Ottomans fabricate a descent? And moreover, oral traditions of the Kayi tribe and the Sogut region corroborate the idea that the Ottomans are descended from the Kayi. One explanation for the lack of a Kayi genealogy has thus been offered: the Ottomans were marrying into various Turkmen families in Anatolia and correspondingly emphasized their common lines of descent, and since everyone knew as a fact that they were Kayi (the Ottoman family were chieftains of the kayi tribe), it was not an important matter to emphasize. More points could be scored by emphasizing the other lines of descent. - Siyakis.
 * Actually this perspective goes back to Paul Wittek, and is hardly limited to the group of historians around Halil İnalcık. As you can see from the already cited sources, there are other historians as well who challenge the Kayı lineage. Chamboz (talk) 12:43, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Haplogroup
Because so many people today claim to be a Prince of the Ottoman Dynasty, and were therefore entitled to inherit, The true male members of the House of Osman, currently twenty-four Princes now in the Line of succession to the former Ottoman throne, and their cousin, the Amuca Kabilesi who are descendants of Gündüz Bey the older brother of Osman I, tested their Y-DNA.

Genetic history of the Turkish people, shows that the common ancestor Ertuğrul of the Kayı tribe, belonged to haplogroup: R1a=6.9% - Typical of Central Asian, Caucasus, Eastern Europeans and Indo-Aryan people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dilek2 (talk • contribs) 17:25, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Kayi (tribe)
Kami2018 Why did you revert my changes in this article? They all are relevant, as medieval sources mention Oghuz and Turkmen in parallel and as the same people.

Bayram A.

Well first of all you have added sayings without any reference such as "The anicent Turkmen proverb says: "Kayi and Bayat tribes shall lead the people" (Turkmen: "Il başy - gaýy-baýat")". Although it might be true but has no reference and to add further its for Turkoman (ethnonym). The reason behind creation of that article Turkoman (ethnonym) was to clear the confusion between Turkoman and Turkmen. Turkmen is part of Turkoman but Turkoman is synonymous to Oghuz turks which i am sure you know includes Turkish, Turkmen and Azeris. Ottomans are Ottoman turks which are Turkish speaking people and you have changed information without discussion and without references. Secondly you changed Turkish to turkic but you turned turk to turkmen to all the places without any reference. Clearly a bias towards turkmen ethnicity. Kami2018 (talk) 07:18, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

- Kami2018 1. Well, there is no difference between "Turkmen" and "Turkoman", these are different pronounciations of the same ethnonym in different languages. The Persians would say "Torkaman" to the Turkmens of Iran and Turkmenistan, e.g. Bandar Torkaman), this word is the same as "Turkoman". Let me give you other examples from reliable sources where the word "Turkoman" means the same as "Turkmen":

- Merriam-Webster Dictionary. "Turkoman". Turkoman: a member of a Turkic-speaking, traditionally nomadic people living chiefly in Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Iran - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Turkoman

- Arminius Vambery, "The Turcomans Between the Caspian and Merv", The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 9. (1880), p.338 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/i330925) - The article taks about Turkmenistan's Turkmens which are called Turcomans.

- The book "The Great Game: The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia" by Peter Hopkirk talks about Turkmens of Turkmenistan in the chapter "The Last Stand of the Turсomans" - (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138299.The_Great_Game ). In this book, Turkmenistan's Turkmens are called "Turcomans".

As you can see, all reliable sources mention the words "Turkmen" and "Turkoman" as synonyms and these two words mean the same, so the ethnonym "Turkmen" is not "part of Turkoman". There are multiple examples of the same, let me know if you want more of them.

2. You also reverted the name of the Kayi tribe in Turkmen, why? Kayi clan still exists among Turkmenistan's and Iranian Turkmens and there is every legitimate reason to mention its name in the Turkmen language. Please cancel your revert for this.

3. You reverted my translation of Shajare-i Tarakime into English (Genealogy of Turkmens), but this is how its translates into English. This work was written by the Khan of Khiva on the request of Turkmen mullahs of Turkmenistan and the English translation should be there as it is. The same applies to the word Turkmen after "mentions Kayı among 24 Oghuz Turkmen tribes". This work is about Turkmens who called themselves Oghuz in the past and the word "Turkmen" should absoultely be there. You surely are biased against Turkmens even when the reliable sources mention Turkmens directly.

4. As for the phrase "The famous Oghuz Turkic folk narrator soothsayer and bard Gorkut-ata (Dede Korkut)", the word "Turkic" is an English word meaning all Turkic-speaking people, however the word "Turkish" in the English language means Turks of Turkey and Turkish minorities of some other adjacent countries. This is an English language Wikipedia and should follow the rules of the English-speaking world. Dede Korkut is part of the folk heritage of all Central Asian Turkic peoples, Azeri Turks and Turkish Turks, so in this case word "Turkic" is relevant. Please revert back this change.

Bayram A.


 * Brother for your information there is an article Turkoman (ethnonym) which clearly explains the difference between Turkmens of Turkmenistan and Turkomans/Oghuz turks. Turkoman includes Turkish, Turkmen, Azeri Turks etc.


 * First of all turkmen Language had nothing to do with Kayi as they spoke Old Anatolian turkish which is an ancestor of turkish language and not turkmen language. That has been changed.
 * The Quote is also fine as its referenced but is redirected to Turkoman which includes all three turkmen, turkish and Azeri.
 * Addition of Oghuz turkmen is changed back to Oghuz turks which is Turkoman and includes all three. There is an article on wikipedia with the name Oghuz turks and not Oghuz turkmen which clearly explains its due to confusion.
 * I have no bias towards the usage of Turkoman but yes usage of turkmen in turkish articles is wrong. It suggests Kayi were turkmen rather they were turkoman which gave rise to ottoman turks which are turkish people.

Kami2018 (talk) 16:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As Turkmen is a branch of Turkoman then instead of redirecting to the turkmen pages which clearly creates confusion.

- Kami2018

- Once again, the Kayi tribe lived in Central Asia and Turkmenistan long before it came to Anatolia. The Kayi tribe is no longer existent in Turkey, but it exists in Turkmenistan and speak the TURKMEN language. I have showed you twice and given you the sources for that, but you INTENTIONALLY refuse to accept the RELIABLE SOURCES. You must be objective in writing an article in Wikipedia and include the name of the tribe in Turkmen language, because the Kayi tribe was and still a Turkmen tribe. If this article is about the Anatolian portion of the Kayi tribe, then it should be named Anatolian Kayi tribe.

- Once again, this is an English language Wikipdeia. In English, the word "Turkish" is relevant to the Turks of Turkey and Turkish minorities in countries adjacent to it. Dede Korkut is an epic of countries, such as Turkmenistan, Azerbajan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Turkey which are collectively called in the English language as Turkic. Here is an excerpt from it: "The Turkic peoples are a collection of ethnic groups of Central, East, North and West Asia as well as parts of Europe and North Africa, who speak Turkic languages". Here is en excerpt from Wikipedia's Dede Korkut article: "The Book of Dede Korkut or Book of Korkut Ata (Azerbaijani: Kitabi-Dədə Qorqud, کتاب دده قورقود, Turkmen: Kitaby Dädem Gorkut, Turkish: Dede Korkut Kitabı) is the most famous among the epic stories of the Oghuz Turks. The stories carry morals and values significant to the social lifestyle of the nomadic Turkic peoples and their pre-Islamic beliefs. The book's mythic narrative is part of the cultural heritage of the peoples of Oghuz Turkic origin, mainly of Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Turkmenistan." As you can see, in relation to Dede Korkut article, the word "Turkish" is not used, the word "Turkic" is used. You must follow the Wikipedia rules of objectivity and change "Turkish" to "Turkic".

Bayram A.