Talk:Kay Francis

Untitled
I have removed Kay Francis from the list of lesbian actors. When it comes to old Hollywood, there are many, many actors and actresses whose sexuality is rather murky. Not all of these rumours are necessarily true, and I have found little corroborating evidence for Kay Francis beyond the notoriously unreliable Boze Hadleigh. A biography of Kay was published recently under the title "I Can't Wait to be Forgotten," and it makes no mention of lesbian activity, although it does refer to many torrid affairs with men. Kay may have "experimented" in the modern 'College' sense during the 1920s, I have no idea, but including Kay on this list would mean adding others of only "rumoured" status, which covers pretty much everybody who's ever been in a movie. If anyone feels compelled to add her again, please post your sources accordingly, as "Marjorie-Main-heard-a-rumour-she-told-Boze-Hadleigh" is rather dubious.

Looking over the "Lesbian Actresses" as a whole is a rather strange passtime, as many noteworthy actresses are apparently absent (to be found under "bisexual actresses"). This makes the entire business of sorting out which actress goes under which category (if they go under any at all). Stanwyck, for example, is under "lesbian" probably more because she was a gay icon, despite the fact that Hadleigh's report on her is suspect, with only her heterosexuality provable (she reportedly was very much in love with Robert Taylor and extremely heartbroken when he cheated on her). Garbo, however, is listed under "bisexual" despite the fact that she was almost exclusively lesbian.

I realize now that I'm in way over my head. Someone, somewhere, should come up with a standard of determining what merits inclusion into which category, because otherwise, the whole thing's just a mess. Wencer 03:45, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

...Just part of a general "de-Hadleighing" that's going on in entries across the site -- his "works" formed the basis of a startling number of actress/performer entries, and it's nice to see them get tidied up. Thanks! Robertissimo 04:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone added her to the bisexual category again, without sourcing, so I'm taking it out again. Perhaps Wikipedia could do something akin to NNDB and make an option for people of "disputed sexual orientation?" Wencer 06:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The "Kay Francis - I Can't Wait to be Forgotten" book does mention that Kay confessed to her fourth husband (actor Kenneth MacKenna)of having slept with three women. She was 26 at the time. In May, 1934 she and Maurice Chevalier discussed the possibility of a "threesome" with another woman, but Kay found the idea "impracticle". One could certainly say that Kay Francis was "bi-curious", although her focus was primarily on men. From reading this book, I suspect that Kay herself would be comfortable with referring to herself as bi-sexual.

Well, YOU would. But no one can take a delusional, mentally ill fag seriously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.151.18.5 (talk) 11:32, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Year of birth
All three of the sources we use say she was born 13 January 1899, yet the article says she was born 13 January 1905. Apparently her parents didn't marry till 1903, but there have always been plenty of born-out-of-wedlock celebrities in Hollywood. I'm changing the birth year. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

She can be found on the 1910 Census as being 5 years old on Ancestry.com:

You have saved this record to My Ancestry (Shoebox). You have saved this record to My Ancestry (People I'm Looking For). This record has been added to your shoebox. 1910 United States Federal Census about Katherine E Gibbs Name: 	Katherine E Gibbs Age in 1910: 	5 Estimated Birth Year: 	abt 1905 Birthplace: 	Oklahoma Relation to Head of House: 	Student Home in 1910: 	Fort Lee, Bergen, New Jersey Marital Status: 	Single Race: 	White Gender: 	Female

Stutzey```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stutzey (talk • contribs) 13:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC) Also, from Ancestry.com are some of the passenger lists of her trips overseas:

You have saved this record to My Ancestry (Shoebox). You have saved this record to My Ancestry (People I'm Looking For). This record has been added to your shoebox. New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 about Kay Francis Name: 	Kay Francis Arrival Date: 	20 Jun 1935 Estimated Birth Year: 	abt 1905 Age: 	30 Gender: 	Female Port of Departure: 	Southampton, England Ship Name: 	Normandie Search Ship Database: 	View the Normandie in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database Port of Arrival: 	New York, New York Nativity: 	Oklahoma Line: 	30 Microfilm Serial: 	T715 Microfilm Roll: 	T715_5659 Birth Location: 	Oklahoma Birth Location Other: 	Oklahoma City Page Number: 	83 Port Arrival State: 	New York Port Arrival Country: 	United States —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stutzey (talk • contribs) 13:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC) (Stutzey (talk) 13:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC))stutzey````


 * According to the BFI database, she appears aged 34 on the 1930 census. Crisso (talk) 21:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I already saw the 1930 Census. Apparently, the enumerator made a huge mistake according to the other documents. It happens all the time.Stutzey (talk) 20:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)Stutzey. I would believe the 1910 Census over the 1930 Census, since it was made before she was even famous. Here is her passport application:

All U.S. Passport Applications, 1795-1925 Results

You have saved this record to My Ancestry (Shoebox). You have saved this record to My Ancestry (People I'm Looking For). This record has been added to your shoebox. U.S. Passport Applications, 1795-1925 about Married Katharine Gibbs Francis Name: Katharine Gibbs Francis Name Prefix: Married Birth Date: 13 Feb 1905 Birth Place: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Gender: Female Residence: Nyc, New York Passport Issue Date: 20 Feb 1925 Spouse Name: J Dwight Francis Spouse Birth Place: Pittsfield, Mass Passport Includes a Photo: Y Source: Passport Applications, January 2, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stutzey (talk • contribs) 20:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Another Source
http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/52/kay.htm has more material and references another biography. J S Ayer (talk) 02:54, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

film added to filmography
I added the film "Dr. Monica", from 1934, to the list of Kay's features. Elsquared (talk) 05:25, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Did she have a problem with L's?
I'm curious to know whether Francis only mispronounced her R's, or L's too. Most sources only say about the rhotacism; however, some of them (like "Kay Francis: A Passionate Life and Career") claim that her L's were also pronounced as W's. --85.118.226.35 (talk) 10:02, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

From viewings of many of her movies, no; if she once did then only the R's remained W's and mostly the ones within a word. Such as 'trouble' came out as 'twouble' but 'caller' came out relatively well. Jennablurrs7575 (talk) 02:41, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Kay Francis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160107142341/http://hollywood-legends.webs.com/franciskay/index.htm to http://hollywood-legends.webs.com/franciskay/index.htm

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doesn't make sense
The article says, quote, "her ashes were scattered according to her last wishes, how the undertaker sees fit." This makes no sense. If it was according to her last wishes, the undertaker's opinion means nothing. (Their opinion wouldn't matter anyway....it's the estate's executor who's responsible for honoring someone's "last wishes". The only limitation would be if doing so would violate the law.)  And the cited source simply directs to an online book catalog. I'm going to check back in a week or so, and unless this sentence is made clearer, I'm going to remove the part about the undertaker. Elsquared (talk) 23:53, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Her last wishes state per her will, "I direct that my body be cremated but that no other funeral expenses be had, and that the undertaker shall dispose of my ashes in a manner to be determined by him, but under no circumstances shall my ashes be retained in any urn or receptacle of any kind, nor shall my ashes be interred, nor shall my ashes be scattered over the seas, nor shall my remains be displayed or viewed by anyone, nor shall services of any type be held." p.215 of Kay Francis A passionate life, notes section. *Her wishes were to have the undertaker dispose of her ashes. Jennablurrs7575 (talk) 23:24, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Question asked, and answered. Thanks very much for the clarification!   Elsquared (talk) 22:10, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out how it could be taken, as it was written. Much appreciated! Jennablurrs 7575 (talk) 19:48, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Personal life
Move all of her marriages and affairs to 'Personal life?

Sure as a recap, but not removing them from article, and for asides that don't flow as part of it. I've updated section along these lines, but removed blockquote from unreliable blog source, also section already is formatted with a quote. Jennablurrs 7575 (talk) 23:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

MFA play about Kay Francis
Gaughan, Kimberly (2019). You Go to My Head. (Master's thesis).
 * T3g5JZ50GLq (talk) 06:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I read the one woman, inspired by pre-code actresses, one-act play, and other than that, I'm unsure what you're wanting? I mean its interesting to posit their thoughts but, unusable for WP as it relies heavily on original concepts and extension of character based on precepts of these actresses through their films. But as a thesis for an Arts degree its very creative. Jennablurrs 7575 (talk) 09:50, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Querying 'homosexual'
I am not especially PC, but while I understand 'gay' was not yet widely in use at the time, at least not in mainstream circles, it's the preferred term now, and it means precisely the same thing. I am not gay myself, but I know it's considered a bit offensive. A little like 'colored' for black people. (Which of course was not offensive back then either.)

Also--about her personal life being in 'disarray'--followed immediately by a statement that she frequently associated with homosexual men. As if the two are somehow connected (which at the time, they would have been). There's a difference between being broad minded and being a flake. I'm sure she had her fun, and who are we to judge? The studio had a stake in keeping her name out of the gossip columns, but that is hardly of any interest to us now, Hedda and Louella being long dead and nobody misses them much.

I haven't read her biography yet, would prefer not to edit the piece myself without having more context--but could that section be perhaps slightly rephrased? Seems to me that she was a good woman, and I prefer good to respectable. If you know what I mean. Yeats did. "For the good are always the merry. Save by an evil chance.  And the merry love the fiddle.  And the merry love to dance."