Talk:Keşkek

Kishke
The Encyclopedia of Jewish Food claims that Slavic kasha and kishke come from the Persian word kashk. I don't think that's a reliable source for etymology. Can we do better? I'll note that Aubaile-Sallenave, in her very comprehensive article (see article bibliography) treating the food and the words in many languages, from Spain to Afghanistan, never once mentions kasha or kishke. --Macrakis (talk) 14:53, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * And here is the link to that statement. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 21:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * see this page too... Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 21:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * In the meanwhile I found this interesting detail:


 * "In the 5th to 6th centuries, the Armenians knew the derived term k'ashken, ' barley bread', as employed by Elishe, when he speaks of the captivity of two Christian priests to whom their Persian jailers bring two barley loaves (1957: 144)" (see reference)


 * Anyway, Persian being an Indo-European language, it is not entirely implausible that has got nexuses with the (equally I.E.) Old Slavic.

Also, is it a coincidence that the cous cous is spread exactly in that corner of Maghreb where the Berber speakers still linger? (Berber being an I.E. language as opposed to the Semitic Arab) Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 22:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * COUSCOUS(S) subst. masc. Étymol. et Hist. 1505 couchou (B. P. de Gonneville, Campagne du navire l'Espoir, Paris, 1869, pp. 92-93 ds Arv., p. 203); 1534 coscosson (Rabelais, Gargantua, chap. XXXVII, éd. Marty-Laveaux, t. 1, p. 140); 1649 couscous (F.-D. Dan, Histoire des royaumes et des villes d'Alger, de Tunis..., p. 281 ds Arv., p. 203). Empr. à l'ar. d'Afrique du Nord kuskus, kuskusūn lui-même empr. au berbère. (source) Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 22:26, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The article already mentions the passages in the Encyclopedia of Jewish Food. I am just not convinced they are correct.


 * I am not sure what your point is in the "Persian jailer" story. In this passage, Aubaile-Sallenave  mentions the Armenian word k'ashken 'barley bread', and says it is borrowed from New Persian kashkin.  She does not mention any connection to Slavic kasha and kishke.


 * As for the IE connection, do you have any evidence or sources for this? Just because two words meaning similar things sound alike in two IE languages doesn't mean they're cognates or borrowings.


 * Berber is not Indo-European, but Afro-Asiatic, fairly closely related to Semitic.


 * Anyway, all of this is original research. Can you find a serious linguistic source connecting kasha and keshkek?  For all I know, they are related -- but I have seen no good evidence of it. --Macrakis (talk) 03:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not original research so long as it is backed by valid references. Of these, "A taste of thyme: culinary cultures of the Middle East" by Sami Zubaida, Richard Tapper, Claudia Roden - University of London. Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies 2000 - 302 pages, stands out as the best elaboration on the intricate issue of the etymology of this (ultimately syncretic) dish named kashk/keskek. Unfortunately there are only snippet like views of it which makes it virtually impossible to check the exact reference to what prompted them to connect the Iranian kashk and the Slavic kasha in the first place. I insert nevertheless a couple of snippets:


 * "..This seems to be the first mention of the black kashk, a speciality of Babylon at that time. Kashk siyah 'black kashk' is furfur and panir siyah 'black curded cheese', three Classical Persian terms equivalent to the Turkish qara qurut"


 * "...Today, after contact with Russian, it is kasha. 7. The Russian kasha, 'buckwheat gruel', is probably also related to Sanskrit kashaya. Some have related kashk to the Indian word kashaya (Spiegel 1887: 81) and Sanskrit kashaya 'medicinal drink' (Monier- Williams 1981 : 265). This is close to its meaning as 'barley water', also medicinal. Other possible relations are with the Persian kesht 'sown, cultivated field' which could be realated to barley (one of the meanings of kashk), and the Khotanese kalsta, 'sown field' (Emmerick and Skaervo 1982:32). We may find many relations with the Persian root kasha, 'to trace a furrow', Persian kisht, 'sown field', and with Sanskrit 'kashaya', as we saw earlier.


 * "...view kashi as 'gruau de lait' 'moloshneya kasha'. As stated earlier, the Georgian word, though borrowed from the Persian kaji, has the meaning of kashk. A dish of cereals, sheep's milk and meat. Kashk in 16th- to 18th-century Iran was a ..."

Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 10:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "But the term is used in the Talmud and is known in Armenia as a prepared porridge or paste of barley meal or wheat, related to the Arabic keshk (Persian kashk; Babylonian Talmud, Nedarim 4\b; cf. ARS Kennedy, "Food," in Cheyne and Black, ENCYCLOPAEDIA BIBLICA, VOL. II.' Hebrew Lexicography...."


 * Also, this volume is worth looking into.


 * As another prof of the extreme cognateness of the IE languages, certainly stands out the word khleb (bread, in Slavic). Surprisingly, or perhaps less so, this is related to the English loaf. Write the authors: "Common Slavic khlieb" is surely a borrowing from some Germanic dialect, probably before 600, and is cognate to English loaf". If such a basic, major word like bread is a loan word in Slavic, then, I wonder, why not kasha too? What's so special about it in order not to be an Iranian loan word? Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 10:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * loaf (n.) O.E. hlaf "bread, loaf," from P.Gmc. *khlaibuz (cf. O.N. hleifr, Swed. lev, Ger. Laib, Goth. hlaifs), of uncertain origin, perhaps connected to O.E. hlifian "to raise higher, tower," on the notion of the bread rising as it bakes, but it is unclear whether "loaf" or "bread" is the original sense. O.C.S. chlebu, Finn. leipä, Lith. klepas probably are Germanic loan words. Meaning "chopped meat shaped like a bread loaf" is attested from 1787. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 10:40, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I am very familiar with the Taste of Thyme volume -- I have used it in editing many articles on WP. If you are interested in Middle Eastern food history, you should read it. If $17 is too much, you can get it from a library (possibly through interlibrary loan).  It is really not a good idea to try to use a source via Google Books snippets.


 * As for the particular snippets you cite, they do not say that Russian kasha comes from Persian kashk. What they say is that (a) the Georgian word kashi is a borrowing either from the Persian kashi or kaji or from the Persian kashk (the wording of the passage is unclear) -- and has come to be pronounced kasha by conflation with the Russian word; and (b) that the Persian word kashk is derived by some writers to the Indian word kashaya (which "is probably" related to the Russian kasha) or perhaps the Persian kesht or the Khotanese kalsta. Your quote "view kashi as 'gruau de lait' 'moloshneya kasha'" is irrelevant --  'moloshneya kasha' here is simply a gloss, not an etymological connection.


 * I am not sure what the point of your khleb/loaf example is. Of course there are lots of borrowings between IE languages, as well as cognates (which is not the same thing, by the way).  But just because two words sound alike and name similar things doesn't prove that they're borrowings or cognates.  What evidence do you have that Russian kasha is a borrowing from Persian kashk rather than a cognate of Sanskrit kashaya, for example? --Macrakis (talk) 16:27, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Στη Σάμο, το φαγητό αυτό αποκαλείται γιορτή, ενώ στη Λέσβο και την ηπειρωτική Ελλάδα το λένε κισκέκ. Στην Ανατολία της Νότιας Τουρκίας, ένα παρόμοιο φαγητό έχει το ίδιο όνομα, kashkek, λέξη που προφανώς έχει κοινή ετυμολογία με το kishke, το παραδοσιακό λουκάνικο των Εβραίων που γίνεται με κρέας και δημητριακά. Παρόμοια φαγητά βρίσκουμε σε γιορτινές συνάξεις σε ολόκληρη τη Μεσόγειο, από την αρχαιότητα. Εκείνο που αλλάζει από περιοχή σε περιοχή είναι τα μυρωδικά, ενώ η ντομάτα έχει προστεθεί στο πανάρχαιο τούτο φαγητό μόλις τα τελευταία εκατό περίπου χρόνια.(see link under 'Bibliography' nr. 3) Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 16:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So και την ηπειρωτική Ελλάδα το λένε κισκέκ! Wow! This is an interesting discovery. We must insert then Epirus too, alongside Samos and Lesbos. As for Claudia Roden and her books, yes, I'm familiar with them. I am not currently in London (will get back there on the 12th) I will check on my return home the big Waterstone in Picadilly (arguably the biggest bookstore in Europe) and buy the book. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 17:00, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what the point of your khleb/loaf example is. Isn't it strange that the Slavs didn't have a word/name of their own for 'bread' and took it instead from the speech of the Germanic tribes, apparently as early as the 6th century? It could be a case of their not having been accustomed to the techniques of baking, which they had mastered at a certain time of their history from the neighbouring Germans, together with the name for 'bread'. I presume they feasted on various kasha like porridges, gruels, frumentries etc. instead. The ancient Slavs did interact with a fair amount of Iranian tribes out of which the Alans are the most prominent. If their khleb is in fact the Germanic loaf then is it so fanciful to speculate that their kasha might in fact be the Iranian (or even Babylonian as we saw) kashk? There must be an acknowledgement of this obvious etymological (and culinary) kinship, it is only a matter of time till we get hold of it. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 17:32, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Bingo! There it is! Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 18:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

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