Talk:Kedesh

NPOV/accuracy
This article assumes that there was only one Kedesh with an undisputed location, which is simply not the case. See for instance I'm busy right now but hopefully will have time to fix this in the next few days. Doug Weller talk 10:49, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Please see the disambiguation note at the top of the article. Debresser (talk) 14:14, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * As Debresser has correctly noted, there are several places by the name "Kedesh," and which are discussed individually in the Disambiguation" link.Davidbena (talk) 15:05, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I gather neither of you read my links? This article states as fact that this is Barak's Kedesh. That's disputed. Please never remove maintenance templates until a discussion is settled, certainly not within hours of them being added. Doug Weller  talk 16:08, 27 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I see. Please though notice, that part of them are already existing articles: Kadesh (Syria) and Kadesh (biblical) (Kadesh Barnea). Which is why I told you to see the disambiguation link. Debresser (talk) 17:59, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
 * User:Doug Weller, I'm not sure exactly what it is that you see as a problem here, since this article clearly deals with the Kedesh of Upper Galilee, and NOT the other four cities by the same name. This is plain to anyone who has ever visited the site under question, or has studied about this very site. I do not know who wrote the article, nor have I followed the edits of its contributors, but the disambiguation is still applicable here, although perhaps this article should be very clear in its lede that it is referring specifically to the Kedesh of the Upper Galilee, rather than to Kadesh Barnea in northern Sinai (or to the Kadesh in Jordan), and rather than Kedesh (Tell Abu-Qudeis) in the Jezreel Valley (Lower Galilee), or to Khirbet Kedesh near the southeastern shore of the Sea of Galilee (also Lower Galilee), or to the famous Syrian site which is also called Kadesh. I have yet to check the referrences given for the archaeological digs if each reference refers specifically to this site or to another; albeit the original intention of the author of this article was to speak about the Kedesh in Upper Galilee. Archaeologists are NOT divided about there being several cities by the name Kedesh, and this Kedesh in Upper Galilee happens to be the one settled by the Tyrians during the time of Josephus. This is clear from Josephus. It is also the site where Jael came from. I'm sure that with many archaeological sites we can find disputing views as to the name of the ancient site, but this does not appear to be one of them. Its name was preserved throughout history. There seems to be an academic consensus about this site. What exactly did you find disputed about this particular site? Davidbena (talk) 18:36, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Doug Weller, I will slowly work to bring down sources for your review, sources taken from C.R. Conder's & H.H. Kitchener's magnum opus, "Survey of Western Palestine," as also other primary sources. For a start, though, here is an online source I saw today that might help set straight a few things. Kedesh Naphtali. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 10:54, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm concerned that you think a family run website is in anyway useful to Wikipedia. I doesn't seem that you have read my sources or responded what I wrote above about the article claiming this is Barak's Kedesh. I'll start a new section on that. Doug Weller  talk 11:10, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Please start a new section and we'll discuss the matter there. The vast majority of our sources and historical geographers claim that this site is, indeed, Barak's Kedesh. Upon preliminary research at the Hebrew Wikipedia, you are absolutely right that the site of Kadesh as related in the story of Barak and Deborah and Sisera is disputed. According to the Hebrew Wikipedia (see: Hebrew Wikipedia on Kedesh Naphtali in Lower Galilee), Barak is associated with "Kadesh Naphtali" in Lower Galilee, called "Khirbet Kadish." In this case, you are right in establishing the fact that Barak's "Kedesh" is disputed. We'll yet hash this out.Davidbena (talk) 11:35, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Barak's Kedesh
The article suggests that Barak was buried here, which is location 1 in the Zondervan Bible Dictionary. - this is in Naphtali.

But that source also discusses another city that might be the city Joshuah capured, a "Lwvitical city within the tribal territory of Issachar, allotted to the Gershonites (1 Chr. 6:72; contrast Kedesh of Naphtali, v. 76). In the parallel list (Josh. 21:28), the place occupied bv Kedesh is taken bv the name Kishion. Because the reference to Kedesh in Josh. 12:22 seems to point to a citv in the vicinity of Taanach, Megiddo, and Jokneam (i.e., in or near the plain of Esdraelon), some have argued that this Kcdcsh is the one in Issachar, not Kcdcsh in Upper Galilee (see #1 above), and that it should be identified with Tell Abu Qudeis, a small mound between Taanach and Megiddo. Others argue that this site is too far W to have been included in the territory of Issachar. It has also been suggested that Kedesh in Issachar was Barak’s hometown (Jdg. 4:6) and/or the place where Heber the Kenite lived (4:11; see #2 above). - you need to read the entry to see the complexities.

Eric Cline discussing Barak's Kedesh "Another sticky problem involves the location of Barak’s hometown of Kedesh in Naphtali, where Barak and Deborah assembled their men. Where was this place? Like Harosheth-ha-goiim (discussed earlier in this chapter), Kedesh has been located by scholars in a dizzying number of possible places. A favorite early identification located the site of Kedesh some seven miles northwest of Hazor in Upper Galilee, by Lake Huleh. This seems rather unlikely, because it is too far from the action in the Jezreel Valley, and because Deborah and Barak would probably not have assembled, or been able to assemble, their army so close to the Canaanite capital city of Hazor. Another favored suggestion has identified Kedesh with Tel Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis), a small mound located only a few miles north of Taanach in the Jezreel Valley itself. However, this location also seems unlikely, because it is too close to Harosheth-ha-goiim and Sisera’s forces, regardless of where Harosheth is to be located in the Jezreel Valley. Once again, Deborah and Barak would probably not have assembled, or been able to assemble, their army so close to Sisera’s camp. Of all the suggested possibilities for the location of Kedesh, the most likely is the site of Khirbet Qadis (Horvat Qedesh), located near the Sea of Galilee on the steep slopes of the mountains between the plain of Jezreel and the Jordan River. This site would have been on the southern border of Naphtali..." Doug Weller  talk 11:40, 29 April 2018 (UTC)


 * So we could add something like "according to one of the two prevalent opinions among archeologists", or even "the most prevalent", if that would be true. Debresser (talk) 11:48, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Upon preliminary research at the Hebrew Wikipedia, you are absolutely right that the site of Kadesh as related in the story of Barak and Deborah and Sisera is disputed. According to the Hebrew Wikipedia (see: Hebrew Wikipedia on Kedesh Naphtali in Lower Galilee), Barak is associated with "Kadesh Naphtali" in Lower Galilee, called "Khirbet Qadis." In this case, you are right in establishing the fact that Barak's "Kedesh" is disputed. We'll yet hash this out. Once we look at the other sources, we'll be a bit wiser. As for the Kadesh (Cydessa) spoken of by Josephus and settled by the Tyrians, it is without question in the Kedesh of Upper Galilee.Davidbena (talk) 11:50, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * , This is for your information: See: The Kades of Josephus, as described in Conder & Kitchener's "Survey of Western Palestine", vol. 1, p. 207.Davidbena (talk) 12:10, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * As for the "Kades of Naphtali" in Upper Galilee (Joshua 19:37-ff.), as opposed to "Kades Issachar" in Lower Galilee, they too have been spoken about by Conder & Kitchener here [pp. 227–230]. Their conclusions seem to differ from those reached by the sources used in the Hebrew Wikipedia.Davidbena (talk) 12:16, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * BTW: A distinction is made in the Hebrew Wikipedia (Kedesh Naphtali) between "Kedesh of Naphtali" and "Kadesh Naphtali." "Kadesh Naphtali" is in Lower Galilee, and is situated southeast of the tribe Naphtali's inheritance (mentioned in Judges, chapter 4), and where was allegedly Barak and Deborah and Sisera. "Kedesh of Naphtali", on the other hand, is in Upper Galilee, and which is named after the Mountain of Naphtali in Joshua 20:7. This may have added to the confusion of our editors.Davidbena (talk) 12:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * More Information about the Kedesh of our article, in Upper Galilee, can be had in the following article: Excavations at Kedesh, cited by our Wikipedia article itself, and where it concludes quite consummately on p. 55 that this Kedesh was the Kedesh (Cydessa) mentioned by Josephus (Wars of the Jews, ii.xviii.§1; iv.ii.§3) as being settled by the Tyrians. The author of this important piece puts the Tyrian settlement of Kedesh in Upper Galilee as early as the late 140s BCE.Davidbena (talk) 12:59, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Doug is to be commended for bringing to our attention that the identification of the biblical site of Kadesh/Kedesh ascribed to Barak and Jael is, in fact, disputed. I'm not sure, however, if we are capable of rendering a verdict as to who here is correct, but we can and ought to mention here that, with respect to Barak's Kedesh, the place is disputed. Page 207 in Conder & Kitchener writes specifically about the site of Kedesh in Upper Galilee and brings down the following anecdote: "Isaac Chelo (1334 A.D.) places the tombs of Barak and Deborah here. Gerson of Scarmela (1561) adds Jael to the number." The matter remains a dispute and should be written as such.Davidbena (talk) 13:52, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks User:Davidbena. It is of course not our role to try to reach a verdict, but to present what reliable sources in proportion to their significance as stated in WP:NPOV. Doug Weller  talk 13:56, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * In that, I agree. We'll see what else there is out there, and how they came-up with the identification of Kedesh in Lower Galilee for Jael's and Sisera's (Barak's and Deborah's) place. We already know that the other site seems to be based on some oral tradition.Davidbena (talk) 14:12, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have in my possession a book, entitled: Sefer ṣohar le-ḥasifat ginzei teiman (ספר צהר לחשיפת גנזי תימן), by Yehuda Levi-Nahum (ed.), Tel-Aviv 1986, s.v. chapter: Tombs of the forefathers and righteous [3], p. 248 (Hebrew), in which the author brings down a collection of old handwritten manuscripts brought out of Yemen, one of which being a list of the burial sites of biblical and Talmudic figures in the Land of Israel. In it, it reads on page 248: קדש, סמוך לעין תחת הכפר שם דבורה וברק ואבינועם ויעל אשת חבר הקני, וחבר ועליהם כוכין גדולים מאבן ומדרש ליהושוע בנון ע"ה [Translation: "Kedesh, near the spring beneath the village, there are [the tombs of] Deborah and Barak and Avinoam and Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, and Heber [himself], and over them are large kukhim made of stone, and the Midrash (Study Hall) of Joshua Bin-Nun, may peace be upon him."] (END QUOTE). It is to be noted that directly beneath the site of the Kedesh in Upper Galilee (Tell Kades) there is, indeed, a natural flowing spring called ʿAin Ḳades. This, of course, points to an oral tradition preserved by Jews, as there is a proclivity among Jews to visit the burial sites of righteous men, and which is still done to this very day.Davidbena (talk) 15:17, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Putting everything into perspective: The problem with the identification of Tell Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis) in Lower Galilee (in the southern part of the Jezreel Valley) as Barak's burial place is that it is not located in the tribal territory of Naphtali, but rather in Issachar, while the Hebrew Bible tells us explicitly in Judges 4: vss. 6, 10-11, that Barak's place of residence was in Kedesh of Naphtali. Furthermore, the Hebrew Bible does not tell us where Barak was buried, although it is more logical to think that when a man dies his corpse would be carried to be buried in or near his native town or village. What I think may have caused historical geographers to guess about his burial place being in Tell Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis) in Lower Galilee, a site located on the south edge of the Jezreel Valley, is that Barak was commanded, in Judges ch. 4, to fight Jabin's army, a Canaanite army that was under the command of Jabin's general, Sisera, and which army would be lured to Mount Tabor, near the Jezreel Valley, and where Jabin's army of 900 iron-clad chariots would be defeated. Reminiscent of this episode is Psalm 83:10, where we read: "Do Thou unto them as unto Midian; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook Kishon; [vs. 11] Who were destroyed at En-dor; they became as dung for the earth."

Even though there was, by a striking coincidence, that other village by the name of Kadesh/Tell Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis) in the southern part of the Jezreel Valley, let no man be deceived thereby. It is still not to be confused with the Kedesh in Naphtali (note the distinction!), Barak's place of nativity. Moreover, the Hebrew Bible makes it clear in Judges 4:11 that the Kedesh of Naphtali was near to a place called "Elon Beṣaʿananayim" (Heb. אלון בצעננים), meaning "The Plain of the Marshes", which translation is based on Rashi's interpretation of the words in Judges 4:11, and where he writes there מריש"ק, or what is the Old French word "maresc", now called in French marécage (marais) = marshland; swamp (see: Sefer Targum Ha-La'az, by Dayan I. Gukovitzki, London 1992, pp. 69, 130). The evidence is clear that we are referring here to the region in the far-north of Israel, where is the Hula Lake (Semechonitis) – a place of marshes (before it was drained), and where Hazor (the city of Jabin) was located only 10 kilometers away from Kedesh of Naphtali.Davidbena (talk) 23:04, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * In Neubauer's Geography of the Talmud (pp. 224–225), he mentions there being three different sites known by the name of "Kedesh," one of which is in the territorial domain of the tribe of Naphtali (Judges 4:6), and another being in the territorial domain of Judah, while the other being in the territorial domain of Issachar (I Chronicles 6:57). He also recalls for the Kedesh of Naphtali in Upper Galilee the biblical reference to another place associated with the Kedesh of Naphtali, that which was called "Beṣaʿananayim", and where the Aramaic Targum uses the words אגניא to describe the same place near to Kedesh of Naphtali. Neubauer expounds there, writing: “אגניא דקדש Baçaananim is rendered in the Talmud as Agania of Kedesh "the basin of Kedesh". Kedesh, a city of the Levites and at the same time city of refuge, was according to Josephus, on the border of Naphtali and the country of Tyre. The Apocrypha calls it Kedesh of Naphtali to distinguish it from the other two cities named Kedesh in Judah and Issachar. Robinson found a Kedes west of Houleh Lake. The country was probably marshy and took its name Baçaananim from marshland, meaning << swamp, >> or what the Talmud refers to as אגניא, meaning < >.” (END QUOTE). I found the site of "Kedesh of Issachar" on the touring map published here, in Israel, and it shows it marked in Hebrew as "Ḥurvat Qedesh" (ח. קדש), a few kilometers southwest of Afulah, and a little southeast of Tel Megiddo, and there is no marshland to be seen in this area of our country.Davidbena (talk) 00:32, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

New section about disputed identity
User:Doug Weller, shalom. Pursuant to your reminder that the identification of the site known as "Kedesh of Naphtali" is disputed by academics, we have therefore added a new section in the article outlining the matter of this dispute. See Kedesh in the current article. If you feel that it meets your requirements of having the dispute mentioned in the article, then it might be best now to remove the templates at the top of the page.Davidbena (talk) 05:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Merger
See Talk:Qadas

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:13, 12 February 2023 (UTC)