Talk:Keir Starmer

Infobox placement of "Sir"
There are lately two differing conventions on where to place the pre-nominal "Sir" in biographical infoboxes. The first convention (which used to be more prevalent) is to put it in honorific_prefix, but a second convention (which has been become more widely used) is to put it immediately before the person's name in name. Given that Starmer is probably the most well-known/consequential politician with a knighthood at the moment, this is probably a good time to discuss this in relation to this article's infobox. Personally, I reckon that we should put it in name, since I think it looks slightly jarring to have "The Right Honourable" linked but "Sir" unlinked, and it matches the practice of bolding "Sir" in the lead. —  RAVEN PVFF   · talk  · 15:43, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I honestly think it just looks better that way. Katechon08 (talk) 16:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There was a discussion on MOS:BIO in 2022. That's probably the place to go, but in terms of general principles, there was not a consensus one direction or another. I think that "Sir", as an honorific prefix, should go in the honorific prefix parameter, and "Keir Starmer", as a name, should go in the name parameter. Ralbegen (talk) 16:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree with as "Sir" is not part of his name. Besides, the template doc for this family of infoboxes says of the name field: Do not put honorifics or alternative names in this parameter. There are separate parameters for these things, covered below. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Politicians are infinitely more touchy of a subject than, say, Sir Christopher Lee or Sir Christopher Nolan, so officeholders (to be more specific) should not be treated with a more neutral stance. BarntToust (talk) 16:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * A knighthood is a name changing honour, so it’s technically part of his name. 2001:8003:E414:7900:700C:38FD:1B8B:6594 (talk) 04:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No, Sir is a title. Gammawammallama (talk) 22:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree with and . His honorific style is The Right Honourable whereas Sir, as a title, becomes part of his name. Hence why it is not considered correct to apply "the Rt Hon" in direct address, only in third person, but it is correct to address him as "Sir Keir". Similar to the reasons why we put Sir before the name in the lead. Not to mention how absolutely atrocious it looks separated from the name in the infobox. Walco1 (talk) 22:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for putting it so concisely. Atchom (talk) 22:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Political identification
I think it would be worth pointing out on front page that he still considers himself a socialist. In a recent interview with BBC he said: "I would describe myself as a socialist. I describe myself as a progressive" instead of just saying he's a centrist.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/27/starmer-im-a-socialist-and-progressive-who-will-always-put-country-first

Napolen4 (talk) 01:20, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I sort of agree, but it shouldn’t replace centrist Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If it is to be included, it should be attributed to himself, as most people wouldn't consider Starmer as such. I think more could be mentioned of Starmer's current relationship to socialism in the article text, but I don't think it belongs to the lead. Tony Blair described himself as a socialist multiple times, yet we don't include it in the lead of his article as most people wouldn't consider him to be a traditional socialist. GnocchiFan (talk) 12:09, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * , 2023; "Key members of Starmer's Shadow Cabinet agree with this diagnosis and have advanced similar ideas to reform neoliberalism, embracing a decentralised, communitarian socialism which involves large-scale structural reform."
 * but you're right, maybe "and he has described himself as a socialist"? If not, than just in the body is fine Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:18, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Endorsements
@ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter, hello there. Do you think that endorsements fit on Starmer's page? I would say they fit in more in the 2024 United Kingdom general election article. Just a thought. Omnis Scientia (talk) 10:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think you're right in saying they'd fit more on the general election article. --ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 11:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Height
Why does the google search page flag for this article read" "Learn about Keir Starmer, the leader of the Labour Party and the Opposition in the UK Parliament. Find out his personal details, education, political positions, and his height (1.83 m or 6 ft 0 in)."- when the consensus seems to be that he is 5ft 8 ½ (174 cm)? I note there appears to be no mention at all of his height in the article, which is not an issue. Is this merely a google matter? JF42 (talk) 10:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Audio mispronunciation
In the audio of his name it isn't pronounced /ˈkɪər/ but /ˈkɪjə/ Vabadus91 (talk) 17:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That is true but according to, the name is pronounced kɪə(ɹ). Meaning that the "ɹ" is either pronounced or not. At any rate, it ist not "r". I have the impression that the usual pronunciation is without "ɹ" or "r" - even if in Gaelic that would be pronounced. But Starmer is not Scottish. Anyway, shouldn't we use the most common pronunciation? --Bernardoni (talk) 00:05, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Knighted by King or Queen?
The article says Starmer "was appointed Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath (KCB) by Charles, Prince of Wales in the 2014 New Year Honours for services to law and criminal justice. " Is this correct?

If you look in the Honours list article, it explicitly says that he was appointed by the Queen. If you check the citation given, it is about honorary doctorates rather than knighthood. Is it possible, that the appointment was by the Queen, but that the actually knighting took place in a ceremony where the then Prince of Wales was presiding? OJH (talk) 08:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)


 * @OJH, yes that is possible and, in fact, quite common too. A person being given an honor is officially appointed by the Monarch even if someone else was deputizing for them in the ceremony itself. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Omnis Scientia: Meaning that I should go look for sources and edit the passage? Or is the accolade the more important part, while the lists are more of a formality, so that the text is more relevant in its current form? OJH (talk) 15:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There was already a citation to the London Gazette, I reused that one and removed the mention of the Prince. That should solve the issue. OJH (talk) 15:24, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that works. I was about to say as much as well. Its more important that he was appointed KCB in the 2014 New Years Honours rather than who oversaw the ceremony. Omnis Scientia (talk) 15:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes that is what happened. The Knighthood was conferred by Her Majesty the Queen but the actual Knighting Ceremony was performed by the then Charles, Prince of Wales who of course is now King Charles III Nimmo27 (talk) 11:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Nimmo27 Thanks. Are you OK with the current wording of the article? OJH (talk) 08:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Andrew Sullivan
Andrew Sullivan is libertarian, not conservative. --95.24.79.236 (talk) 04:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Infobox style
In the infobox, we need to remove "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom" or not. Please decide to keep or not. MAL MALDIVE (talk) 06:11, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * He isn't Prime Minister. Writing that would just be factually incorrect. Winning an election doesn't make you PM. He will become PM when Sunak resigns and he is appointed by the King. BSmooner (talk) 07:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh! MAL MALDIVE (talk) 09:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 July 2024
Please add to his legal career section the following: Starmer represented Croatia at the genocide hearings at the International Court of Justice in The Hague in 2014, arguing that Serbia wanted to seize a third of Croatian territory during the 1990s war and eradicate the Croatian population. / SoupePrimordiale (talk) 11:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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Leader of the Labour Party is not a shadow portfolio as Labour are the governing party
Can this be fixed in the infobox? The Leader of the Labour Party is not a shadow portfolio as Labour are the governing party. ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 11:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 July 2024 (2)
Can you guys format the following text to look more formal, grammatically correct, and easy and quick to read?

"Sir Keir Rodney Starmer KCB, KC (/ˈkɪər/ ⓘ; born 2 September 1962) is a British politician and is the current Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and has served as Leader of the Labour Party since 2020."

I suggest we change it to this:

Sir Keir Rodney Starmer KCB, KC (/ˈkɪər/ ⓘ; born 2 September 1962) is a British politician who is currently serving as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom since 2024 and as Leader of the Labour Party since 2020.

Thank you. Sratcao42 (talk) 12:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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What is this supposed to mean?
"This landslide victory was similar to the one achieved by Tony Blair at the 1997 general election, the last time a Labour opposition ousted a Conservative government." 121.99.69.54 (talk) 13:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * No idea. I've removed it. — Czello (music) 13:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 July 2024 (3)
Change: to: Buckleyc (talk) 13:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ intforce (talk) 13:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Opening Section
Last paragraph, 1st sentence:

In July 2024, Starmer led Labour to a landslide victory in the 2024 general election, ending fourteen years of Conservative rule. He succeeded Sunak as prime minister later that day.

"later that day" has no reference date. Suggest change sentence to:

On 4th July 2024, Starmer led Labour to a landslide victory in the 2024 general election, ending fourteen years of Conservative rule. He succeeded Sunak as prime minister the following day.

PS. Not suggested a change to a locked article, so apologies if this is the wrong format. Alan uk2 (talk) 14:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 July 2024 (4)
Hello,i would like to update the photo of kier starmer as i believe it needs to be updated to a more recent date, this is why to day i am requesting a edit request.

Thank you. buran 1314. BURAN 1314 (talk) 15:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * It is now changed to the official portrait of 2024. MAL MALDIVE (talk) 15:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The lead needs adjusting; at the moment, it repeats itself. Suggest something along the lines of:"In July 2024, Starmer led Labour to a landslide victory in the 2024 general election, ending fourteen years of Conservative government. He succeeded Rishi Sunak as prime minister on 5 July 2024." Also, per MOS:LEADCITE, why are there so many refs in the lead, when all this is cited in the article body? Perhaps ref. the description of 'landslide'—since it's potentially a WP:WTW—but the remainder should either be in the article itself and therefore not need citing here or removed from the lead in its entirety (the stuff about union supporters, 2023 articles etc). 2.28.124.91 (talk) 16:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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Children
Why are the names of his children omitted? The information is publicly available via an easily citeable source - the General Register Office Birth Index. 146.200.29.183 (talk) 16:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Because "The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons." and the source you are referring to is a primary source. SmartSE (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree. Unless the children are notable, i.e., have their own articles, it provides no meaningful information. TFD (talk) 04:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree not to include the names for privacy reasons. For similar reasons, the names of the daughters of Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak are not mentioned on their articles.--ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 11:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Starmer's put a lot of effort into not publicly naming his children in order to preserve their privacy. Could we remove the names from this page? https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/03/wednesday-briefing-first-edition-keir-starmer-family-labour 82.18.252.168 (talk) 20:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks - yes I should have done that from the start. SmartSE (talk) 21:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 July 2024 (5)
The current image is nominated for deletion so I request to update the image to File:KeirStarmerOfficialPortrait.jpeg Parabelleum (talk) 19:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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A toolmaker?
Was his father really a toolmaker? I know it says so and there's a citation. But how are we really to know for sure that his father made tools for a living? 184.148.141.44 (talk) 02:39, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * So true I have never seen him mention it ever PimmA08 (talk) 22:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean, we can't really know anything for that matter.  Bremps  ...  16:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Birthplace on the infobox
I'm not familiar with how UK birth places are supposed to be stylized on the infobox but why isn't it Southwark, London, England or Southwark, London, England? Futuremaineretiree (talk) 02:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * It depends how much detail you want. Most people outside the UK have never heard of Southwark. TFD (talk) 04:29, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

since 2024?
The phrase "who has served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom since 2024" implies that 2024 is in the past, whereas it is not. Nearly six months remain until it will be, so I suggest that the wording here be modified, possibly to: "[...] is a British politician and barrister who was elected as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in 2024. He has been Leader of the Labour Party since 2020 and served as Leader of the Opposition from 2020 to 2024." Bret Sterling (talk) 14:41, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * He wasn't elected prime minister, though. He was appointed prime minister. GoodDay (talk) 04:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I now see what you mean. How should my proposal be modified, then? How about "who was appointed as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom following elections in 2024"? Bret Sterling (talk) 02:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Picture of Tony Blair under political positions
Is that really needed? 2A0A:EF40:E4A:E101:6542:B3B6:C1F1:E68B (talk) 06:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Considering the fact Starmer has frequently been compared to Blair, I'd say so. --ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 11:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Antisemitism in the party
I'm under the opinion that this should remain. As there's been an overwhelming amount of reliable sources stating that it's a notable part of his term as the Leader of the Labour Party.

There also appeared to be an agreement to include this awhile back. Should it remain? KlayCax (talk) 23:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Anglican
Please add that he's loosely from Anglican background so that antisemite can stop making conspiracies. Here's source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/31/the-guardian-view-on-labour-doing-god-faith-communities-can-play-a-part-in-national-renewal 166.181.82.159 (talk) 12:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2024
Please change "since 2024" to "following elections in 2024". As previously observed, "since 2024" implies that 2024 was in the past whereas it is not. Bret Sterling (talk) 17:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 July 2024
Add a link to “Rishi Sunak” to the page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishi_Sunak under the “Prime Ministers” section under the heading “Leader of the Opposition” 2A00:23EE:1158:771A:40BF:CB98:3C49:F5F5 (talk) 01:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
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Right honourable and Learnerd
Isnt Kier Starmer technically "The Right Honourable and Learned" rather than just "Right Honourable" on the account of him being a barrister and KC? Dbainsford (talk) 11:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)


 * This is only for oral address in the House, not as a print title. Atchom (talk) 15:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Calls for a ceasefire in the lead
We don't need to mention the fact he previously didn't call for a ceasefire in the lead. It's already mentioned that he didn't call for one in the political positions section on this article, and the sub-article for his political positions offers two paragraphs worth of text about his Gaza views. ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 12:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The lead summarises the key elements on the main body so its naturally going to repeat information. It is definetly notable that he refused to call for a ceasefire for over four months of the war going on. Helper201 (talk) 13:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I totally understand that, just don't want the lead to get too long is all. I'll make a few tweaks but keep it in the lead. --ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 13:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Half a sentence and a date - or about 9 words - by no means makes the lead too long. Helper201 (talk) 13:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I know, when I said that I meant not wanting the lead to get too long in general. I've added mention of it back, just without "20 February 2024" as the full date doesn't need to be listed in the lead. --ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 13:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Transgender rights
The transgender rights section under political positions seems kinda POV. I don't think it's needed. 81.78.155.45 (talk) 13:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This isn't a consensus as you seem to imply in your edit summaries. The topic in question has received substantial media attention and possibly upset many Labour supporters. Maurnxiao (talk) 15:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Whitewashing
How is correcting stating that Starmer has made many pro comments about the LGBT+ community and actually expanding on what he said about transgender rights, whitewashing to you, @Helper201?

Please excuse me, I am studying poltics & I've been keeping an eye on this page over the past few days.

This version was much more stable and better. ShinegemsAD (talk) 13:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Because it removed other information such as him being against self-ID and saying he will continue to block the Gender Reform Bill in Scotland just to paint a more positive picture. This is getting very suspicious that a brand-new account pops up within about an hour of that edit to back up what was done by ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter in the same way an IP with no prior edits also randomly popped up to support one of their edits. Helper201 (talk) 13:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, thank you for explaining. I'm not an editor here. But I am sure others who are will have a say about this and your edit. I think it's silly to suggest making sure it's noted that Starmer wants to strengthen LGBT legislation is whitewashing. ShinegemsAD (talk) 13:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter I see you have made so many edits on this article, would you agree with me that the version I linked was more better? ShinegemsAD (talk) 14:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * To the first commenter, thank you for the explanation I can confirm that I have no relation to the other account or IP adress. I agree that it is suspicious but it has nothing to do with me. To the second commenter, I think my alteration is an improvement as it's a lot shorter. --ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 15:10, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't shortening articles to the point of excluding notable social policies of Starmer be detrimental to the article? Maurnxiao (talk) 15:48, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Helper201 Wikipedia is a collaboration; you do not own this page. If someone has added cited content, you shouldn't remove it. Nobody removed your cited content, they expanded on it, which is what Wikipedia is about. You also didn't reply back to concerns on your talk page about this, which I've read is helpful and important here. ShinegemsAD (talk) 10:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There was cited content removed by ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter. Helper201 (talk) 11:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Imo this version was much better, clearly expanding on Starmer's views on the LGBT+ community with good sources, and also expanding on his comments regarding trans rights. ShinegemsAD (talk) 11:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The edit removed cited content, as ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter has been doing constantly across multiple Wikipedia pages despite repeated discussions. Helper201 (talk) 11:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

R.e. “Sir” for Keir Starmer
From my understanding, including aspects of a title in the lede (not the infobox) does not conform to other articles and thus may lack careful consideration. For example, articles on academics include merely their name (e.g. John Smith) rather than with honorary titles, like: Dr John Smith or John Smith, Ph.D (despite presenting this way in formal reports; Romanos et al., 2017). I am unaware of any guidelines outlining exceptions for Sirs.

Additionally, the placement of the honorific in the infobox is being repeatedly contested in which it is excluded or exchanged between the title and honorific sections. In my opinion, a consensus should be reached upon which an invisible comment in the infobox is added to preclude further issues.

Note that the infobox title is also used to indicate the most colloquial as opposed to formal references to the individual. For example, the Jacksepticeye article.

Димитрий Улянов Иванов (talk) 23:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)


 * WP:MOS has specific guidelines for "Sir" which is bolded in the lede. Moreover there have been prolonged debates about "Sir" in the infobox and consensus is to follow the long-standing MOS style and to have it bolded and part of the name. "Sir" is not the same thing as "Dr" as it is a name-changing title. Atchom (talk) 00:11, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have any sources that Sir is a name-changing title and is Mister also one? TFD (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 July 2024
In the section under Jeremy Corbyns leadership, the text mentions Keir Starmers time as Secretary for Brexit, there is an error as ‘Appointed’ is spelt ‘Appinted’. TaiJarrett (talk) 21:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
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Comments at NATO summit on Palestinian statehood
Should Starmer's comments at the NATO summit on Palestinian statehood be added to the article? Support for the recongition of Palestinian statehood in potential opposition to the US and Israel as part of a peace process, as committed to in Labour manifesto, and affirmed as PM at a major international summit seems relevant to the premiership's foreign policy section.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-palestine-israel-usa-american-recognition/

He told journalists at the Nato summit that a ceasefire "needs to be a foot in the door for a process towards a two-state solution, a viable Palestinian state alongside a safe and secure Israel".

He said: "We don't have either of those at the moment. That is the process that we all should work on, we've been discussing it with colleagues here in bilaterals and recognising Palestine is part of that process.

"And part of that process is important, rather than the end of the process, because this is a right the Palestinian people have, it's not in the gift of anyone.

"And so far as our policy is concerned, I'll determine our policy, not follow anyone else." SoThisIsPeter (talk) 01:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)