Talk:Keith Miller/Archive 1

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

FA Drive to-do list

 * 1) Tackle cn tags
 * 2) More free images
 * 3) Bowling chart to complement batting
 * 4) Flesh out sections to complete narrative
 * 5) MOS check
 * 6) Complete copyedit
 * 7) Peer Review
 * 8) FAC

C'est tout. --Dweller (talk) 12:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Given that Miller was larger than life, we might need a daughter article or two. Lindwall was just a normal classical player, but Miller had all the shenanigans and did lots of unusual things.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 00:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

War service
I added a little to the early years section. There is a small problem with Miller's war service as it is currently written. According to the national archive, he joined the army (as a private) on 20/8/1940, served with the AASC (Southern Command) and was discharged (pending transfer to the RAAF) on 8/11/1941.

Phanto282 (talk) 19:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If I had to guess, I would say he joined the militia in 1940 rather than the Second Australian Imperial Force. As such, he certainly was not expected to fight overseas, at least until 1942; and his service would have consisted of drilling once or twice a week around his civillian employment. I am not sure how we check this. -- Mattinbgn\talk 21:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Probably. I tried researching the AASC but couldn't find its exact role, here are his enrolment papers. Fined ten bob for insubordinate language to a superior...lol. He played a few games for the Saints in 1942 before his RAAF posting. A couple of points to digest: I have seen reports that he held Pratt goalless, or to one goal, hence the description in the early life section. Regardless, this prompted his signing by St Kilda, which suggests the match against Pratt was early in the 1940 season, as Pratt played with South in '39 (Lionel Frost's history of Carlton FC suggests Pratt and Brighton Diggins were discriminated against because they were protestants in a Catholic club, so sectarian bias goes both ways, I guess). I came across photos that suggest Miller represented NSW at the carnivals in 1947 and 1950 (but not usuable as refs), which means he continued playing footy for quite a while after his move to Sydney, but I have no idea which club he played for in the NSW league. Obviously, Main and Holmesby will be Victorian-centric refs on this and state that he stopped playing after 1946, which doesn't appear to be true. Coleman suggests he is the only player to represent both states at both sports. Totally useless trivia: Miller wore #27, same guernsey worn by Barry Breen when he kicked the winning point in the '66 Grand Final. Further into Miller's life, Gideon Haigh claims that he lost the captaincy to Ian Johnson as part of the fallout from the Sid Barnes 12th man incident (that old chestnut) as he was captain of NSW during the game and failed to discipline or censure Barnes. Interesting theory; my guess is Bradman liked Johnson (and was close to his father) and had various blues with Miller...will make an interesting para or two. Phew...it's hot in the kitchen Phanto282 (talk) 08:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Graphs
A pair of small graphs showing his rankings for batting and bowling would be nice. The ones at the LG ICC site are poor, as they show up as flatlines, because the y axes include far too many rankings. --Dweller (talk) 11:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Pre-war info
Coming soon. Hold on there.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 06:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Opening sentence debate
There is a debate about the opening sentence at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cricket. Please do contribute. --Dweller (talk) 11:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Some online sources

 * Cricinfo searches for the greatest all-rounder --Dweller (talk) 14:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Cites needed in lead
Is it necessary to reference claims in the article lead that are cited in the article body? -- Mattinbgn\talk 07:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's debatable. I'd tend to agree with you that it's not, but The Rambling Man and I have faced opposes at FAC in the past until we cited stuff in the Lead too. On reflection, there's no harm in it and there's the possibility of good - if the material in the main section becomes damaged or removed at some point in the future. --Dweller (talk) 09:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Guardian obituary...

 * is here  Interesting piece including his falling out with Ian Johnson. -- Mattinbgn\talk 09:01, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ...and the Telegraph -- Mattinbgn\talk 12:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Lord's pavillion portraits
How many Australians have portraits in the Lord's pavillion? The article says 4; Trumper, Bradman, Miller and Warne. This news article says 3, leaving out Trumper. Has anyone seen Trumper's portrait at Lord's? -- Mattinbgn\talk 08:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've dealt with this as best I can, leaving out my OR speculation that the Trumper portrait has been moved (presumably to the museum) I could email Lord's to ask, but I don't believe their response would fulfil RS even if they did reply. --Dweller (talk) 10:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Queries
Having just read through a few of the recent changes, I noticed a few problems I couldn't immediately resolve. I've inserted html comments into the text at the relevant points, but they included: reference to someone as a flight officer - there was no such rank in the RAAF, but it was impossible to tell if this should be pilot officer, flying officer, or flight lieutenant, which were all valid ranks; V1 rocket - the V1 was the flying bomb (which has already been mentioned in the article), the V2 was the rocket;the grammar around Miller's run in with his instructor is rather confused, it's not always absolutely clear who is meant by "he" at any given point); similar issues occur round some of Miller's laterrun-ins with authority too.  David Underdown (talk) 14:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

To-do list for FA drive
In order to get to FA:


 * Initial copy-edit
 * Reduce length, without losing vital content


 * Spread out uneven batching of images


 * Look at grouping some sections as subsections


 * Check for first-instance wikilinking of all cricket jargon
 * Address all citation needed tags
 * Address outstanding issues on this page
 * Address any hidden comments
 * Third-party copy-edit
 * Peer Review
 * Thorough link check / MOS check / image check
 * FAC

Anything I've missed? --Dweller (talk) 10:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

First class debut
"Late in the summer, he made his first-class debut for the Victorian Second XI and hit 181 against Tasmania at the Melbourne Cricket Ground."

The reference doesn't indicate it was the second XI, and second XI games aren't usually first class. Are you saying it was a reserve side that Tasmania fielded for a nominal first XI game? (presumably because Tasmania were so weak in those days) --Dweller (talk) 14:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Height aged 12
Can someone cleverer than me make this into one of those converty sort of things so people can understand what 150cm means in their own terms? --Dweller (talk) 10:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ditto for when he gets his growth spurt. --Dweller (talk) 16:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Cars, oil and Beames
V. confused.

Article says, "taking a position as a clerk for a car business" Then it says, "One of Miller's teammates was Percy Beames, who was also his manager at Vacuum Oil." That's an odd name for a car business. But if it is the name, it should be mentioned the first time, too, to help sense. Then, later, "He again showed his disrespect for authority and reputation, striking his boss Beames with a raised elbow at the start of a match against Melbourne" I took that to mean his team manager, but I think it's the same Percy Beames and it means his work boss, but team mate. Why did he hit a team mate? Can all that lot be clarified? --Dweller (talk) 10:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

"man the greatest forward of the era, Bob Pratt"
I've amended this to "man-mark", which I assume is the right terminology for Aussie rules. However, I'm concerned about POV over Pratt's description. Is that a quote from the ref? If so, it should be in quote marks. If not, it should be carefully edited. --Dweller (talk) 16:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know how widely this view is held but whoever wrote the wikiarticle also thinks so. I'm pretty sure he was the most prolific goalkicker of his time but I thought it might be tough to stick in a few sentences to explain all of Pratt's stats as well.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 08:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Images
Anyone know how to add a thingummyjig showing that there's media about Miller on Commons? Also, I think we have an image of his call-up papers... anyone think that'd be a nice, personal, unusual image to include? His war record is important to his persona. --Dweller (talk) 10:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not in the cat, who uploaded it?  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 06:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No idea. Maybe I'm thinking of a different Invincible. --Dweller (talk) 12:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Change of Date
I changed a date from 1946 to 1944, as it related to his service in NW Europe and the date was clearly meant to be before early 1945. TheNeilster (18 Sep 08) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheNeilster (talk • contribs) 07:55, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Military career
I have made a copy of this section at my sandbox. Rather than try and trim the existing content, possibly leaving a cut-to-pieces mess that is a poor reflection of the valuable content in the daughter article, I will try and rewrite almost from scratch. I will be away all weekend&mdash;in Melbourne to watch the AFL Grand Final (alas, not at the ground)&mdash;but will start when I return. Feel free to add your two cents worth there should you wish. -- Mattinbgn\talk 04:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

BIGgest problem of article
Is of course, its size. I'll be looking to hive off some material into the daughter articles. If I move anything that's really crucial, please let me know, discuss it here or revert me with pleasure. --Dweller (talk) 09:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Dweller, the tool I have on my computer says this about your page size "Prose size (text only): 79 kB (13925 words) "readable prose size". User:Ling.Nut helped me install something on my computer that gave it the ability to click on a page size in the toolbox section to the left of the article page. When I click on it, all text, minus references and images are counted as "readable prose". Also, there is some guidance here at Fool's guide to writing a featured article; regarding page sizes for FA's. SandyGeorgia posted that to my talk page last June to help me. It specifically discusses appropriate FA article size and what to include or possibly move. I hope that helps. Nice article, good luck with its FA.   Nancy Heise   ''' talk 16:40, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I just took a look at the article for a little while and noticed that the lead does not summarize the contents of the article. It seems to discuss his prowess in cricket but says nothing about his actual life outside of the sport. It should really be a short summary of the article contents. If it is not discussed in the body of the article, it should not be in the lead and vice versa. Let me know when you submit it for a peer review and I'll come offer some comments if you like. No I am not a cricket fan, sorry, I do like football and my son forces me to watch boxing sometimes - hence I have a healthy knowledge of that sport, but only reluctantly. [[Image:Face-smile.svg|25px]]  Nancy Heise   ''' talk 16:50, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * About the lead, yes. That predates when the article was written and doesnt match up.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 01:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Keith Miller
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Keith Miller's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "sched": From Keith Miller with the Australian cricket team in England in 1956:  From Sam Loxton with the Australian cricket team in England in 1948:  From Keith Miller with the Australian cricket team in England in 1953:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 06:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

messerschmitt quote

 * got another book source for the quote if you need it:
 * "Pressure? I'll tell you what pressure is. Pressure is a Messerschmitt 109 up your arse firing tracers. Playing cricket is not."
 * Creswell, Toby & Trenoweth, Samantha. (2006). 1001 Australians You Should Know. Melbourne:Pluto Press Australia. ISBN 1864033614
 * Thanks for that.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 23:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

King hit/shoulder bump story
Adds a little colour, but I'm unconvinced the story is essential. It's only really relevant if linking the two events as retribution, but that's OR unless the RS specifies it. Does it? Somewhat arrogantly, I've currently hidden it, but do feel free to reinstate it or delete it. --Dweller (talk) 12:02, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah the book specifies it....quotes Miller talking about the king hit as a big lesson.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 23:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * As for the fullback thing, his job was to nullify/stifle the guy completely, no need to attack or anything, just to "spoil" by knocking the ball away.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 23:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Representing two states in cricket and football, Sidney Nolan & subduing Ramadhin
The lads at WikiProject AFL have put their heads together and state that Miller is one of only three people to represent two states in cricket and Australian rules football, the other two being Laurie Nash (Tas & Vic) and Neil Hawke (SA & WA). Unfortunately we currently don't have a ref for this but will continue searching.

While I'm at it, can I mention that Sidney Nolan's painting "The Footballer" (see is based on Miller? Check the following article  for confirmation.

Finally, Everton Weekes writes that in this Test match Miller and Hassett were the first batsmen to pick Sonny Ramadhin. "Ram, for the first time, bowled his heart out without reward, and looked tired and broken." From Weekes Mastering the Craft: Ten Years of Weekes 1948-1958, p. 138, Universities of the Caribbean Press Inc., Barbados.

Any questions, fire away. --Roisterer (talk) 11:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Football career
Just wondering why Miller doesn't have a football player infobox with his stats? 50 games is relevant enough, and every player has one. It could go in the section about his time in the VFL. Any thoughts or objections before I whip one up. Gibbsyspin 10:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Well I've done it as no-one has piped up. I am troubled however as to get the text to wrap around the infobox and accompyaning image. Does anyone have any help? Gibbsyspin 09:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

As an added piece of info, which I'll put here before adding to article later, Miller also played three matches for the combined West Adelaide-Glenelg side in the WWI SANFL comp while he was on R&R leave in Victor Harbour. The ref doesn't say what year. Ref is Hornsey, A. "Knock Outs", Football Times, Messenger Publications: Adelaide. 17 April 1980, p. 2.