Talk:Ken Shamrock

Steroids
That article should have more information about Shamrock problems with steroids. He even admited it.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/mma/post/2010/06/ken-shamrock-yes-i-used-steroids/1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.213.161.179 (talk) 03:06, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Two Problems
In the WWF section, it says he lost his title shot due to Triple H; it does not make it clear whether it was because he intervened backstage, in a match, or through a run-in. It should be clarified.

The article also says that he began as a pro wrestler, but makes a comment later about how he "returned to his roots" in UFC. If he was a wrestler first, UFC is not his "roots."

He did not invent the ankle lock of MMA, and no MMA fan would mistake it for such. It is an overdone form of the ankle lock, and he does seem to be the first pro wrestler to use it.

--L.A.F. 04:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I have been reading about, watching, and practicing jiu-jitsu and MMA for a number of years now. I have never heard anywhere that Ken Shamrock "invented" the ankle lock. That is a very bold claim because it is so widely used in a number of fighting systems, including traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu (according to a recent article in Black Belt magazine compaying traditional and modern jiu-jitsu). Still, I will not make any changes to the article because I am too lazy and disinterested to go down to the library and prove that there are earlier illustrations of the ankle lock.

> The article was referring to the move he used in WWE. It's not even an ankle lock - I don't think any WWE submissions are even allowed to be anything close to real submissions. Perhaps it should be clearer, but the author did not intend to state Ken invented an actual fighting move. Besides, Ken was using the ankle lock, heel hook and knee bar way back in the early and mid 90's while in Pancrase. There's some footage of sick submissions being slapped on opponents.

Catch wreslting, which has origins predating JJ, has also had different leg submissions and had them long before the birth of Ken Shamrock.

I took the MMA section and the Pro Wrestling section and clearly seperated them, It seems that real sport vs. fake sport are a clear enough distinction that a complicated chronological listing of his activities is unneccesary. Also, i cleared up some problems with the past tense. BoosterBronze 19:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

However, placing Pancrase in Pro Wrestling was a mistake. Pancrase was not predetermined in its nature (yes, there are rumors of a few fixed matches but nothing confirme). I am expanding the Pancrase information as it was where he got his start in MMA and gained enough notoriety to be noticed by the UFC. He also won the first Openweight King of Pancrase tournament in 1994. Anyhow, moving the Pancrase related stuff into MMA and expanding. --Aika 15:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The Sharpshooter is an incredibly painful submission...try slapping that on one of your buddies sometime. WWE submissions can and often do hurt. It's just that they don't apply the full amount of pressure.--129.21.144.217 14:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Retirement
Did he actually retire? I watched his post fight interview twice and it seems he was non-committal, although he definitely acknowledged the possibility he just might. When Rogan asked if he was retiring, Shamrock said, "yeah..." but he immediately said he was not considering it before so that he could concentrate on the fight. hateless 03:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This video answers this question. hateless 16:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Nevada Lions
The end of his "MMA Career" section should be updated to reflect he is currently the coach of the Nevada Lions in the IFL. The press conference mentioned was over a year ago.

Son Ryan
I just read on ufcjunkie.com that Ken's son Ryan (not Alicia Webb a.k.a. Ryan Shamrock) is going to have his first mma match on August 25th.Should this be added to the page with a more reliable source?(MgTurtle 21:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC))

That 70's show appearance
It says he played Bruno Sammartino. That is completely false. Ken played a nameless pro wrestler who yells at the main characters for booing him. His IMDB page states he played Wrestler #1. --67.85.214.140 18:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

RETURN AT CAGE RAGE
Why is there nothing about his March 8th return to cage rage to face Robert Berry. His son's fighting on the same card. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.121.209.129 (talk) 22:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Cage Rage 25
I think there is something to be said about his cage rage return and his current thoughts on fighting again GalacticLion (talk) 22:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

MMA record table
The Brian Johnston Ken fought is the Kickboxer and Pro Wrestler not the cricket commentator who died before these fights ever took place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.66 (talk) 12:46, 6 December 2008 (UTC) Please make it smaller and easier to read. See Lyoto Machida's or Tito Ortiz's for example. Also various submission wins don't have what he won by. For example, his first win over Bas Rutten was a Rear Naked Choke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EvolutionarySleeper (talk • contribs) 21:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Mission submissions
I watched every mission submission Ken Shamrock fight on Veoh. If anyone needs a link to verify the types of submissions, ask for a link about which fight you have a question about. EvolutionarySleeper (talk) 06:26, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Article seems long
This article looks a little long to me. I think we should tidy it up. Portillo (talk) 11:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

NPOV
This is an excessively adulatory biography written like a sports bio on ESPN, hyping the accomplishments of the fighter. Significant efforts should be made to improve the unencyclopedic tone of the article. causa sui (talk) 21:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Shamrock had a ton of accomplishments in mixed martial arts; he is one of the most accomplished fighters ever. They are all extremely relevant to his career. I don't see the problem with this article, none of the stuff is made up, it is all factually correct information complete with citations from reputable sources. Nyquistx3 (talk) 03:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Claims about Lion's Den
I have a problem with the claim that Ken Shamrock's training camp Lion's Den "became one of the most successful camps in mixed martial arts history". In whose opinion? At no time did I know of anyone who considered them to be a very successful camp much less the most successful camp. In the last ten years, the camp has produced a grand total of 1 successful fighter that became a champion- Roy Nelson (IFL Heavyweight Champion, which is now defunct). He's also the only fighter currently fighting for a major MMA Organization.

Second, the claim that "Mikey Burnett, Frank Shamrock, and Jerry Bohlander were also considered to be three of the best pound for pound fighters in the world during their time with the UFC in the late 1990s" is absolutely ridiculous. Burnett and Bohlander were routinely defeated in the UFC. The source for this claim, Max Muscle Interview: The Ultimate Fighting Machine, does not state who the interview was conducted with. For all we know, the source could have been Ken Shamrock himself trying to promote his gym or just merely the opinion of one person which does not speak to the consensus. It is presented as fact when it is really a far-out opinion not shared by any sensible person.

Lastly, the Lion's Den was a business run by Ken Shamrock. The point of it was to make money for him in training and then franchising gyms across the country. Several such gyms opened with Shamrock's name on them with thousands of members and none of them made it big in MMA besides Roy Nelson. These claims fall under the label of hype or advertisement more than the realm of fact. The neutrality of this article, especially the statements made about the Lion's Den, should definitely be questioned, scrutinized and perhaps labeled as opinion instead of fact. I am attempting to go this route of posting on the talk page instead of just changing it myself, in hopes that the changes are made and they stick. Please read the article for yourself and make your own judgments, but as a reporter and fan of mixed martial arts for almost 15 years, I believe these claims are bogus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.18.80.214 (talk) 09:36, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I addressed some of these issues and changed some of your concerns, including emphasizing "early history" over "entire history" of mixed martial arts in reference to the Lion's Den, and also removed the "pound for pound" claim about Bohlander, Burnett and Frank Shamrock as it was a weak source. Nyquistx3 (talk) 04:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Alex Cook link in fight history pointing to wrong guy
Link goes to some ice hockey player with the same name 121.209.64.51 (talk) 17:19, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Maltopia

Rewrite please!
This article is nigh-unreadable in its current state. Sentence fragments and random carny slang abound. It is begging for a halfway decent copy editing.24.60.216.176 (talk) 04:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

"Rumors"
There are alot of lines in the article that speak about "rumors" and whether or not Ken's fights in pancrase were pre-determined. If it is a rumor and the references list them as so, it should not be included on wiki especially considering the guy is alive. Any thoughts? Dougy05050 (talk) 05:47, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You are correct. Per WP:SOAP and particularly WP:BLPGOSSIP, that type of material is no acceptable for Wikipedia. Please remove whatever material you identify lacks references. If you are convinced that a referenced sentence is merely gossip, please also remove it or tag it with dubious or Weasel-inline depending on how you perceive it. I personally would like to remove all rumors from this BLP article, but perhaps some editors may feel that some of the referenced ones may have some value. Jfgslo (talk) 03:49, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I will go through it. thanks for the input Dougy05050 (talk) 11:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Wrong Info!
Ken Shamrock is not fighting July 27th at UCFC as you guys have posted it's a guy named Jeff Shamrock! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.51.88 (talk) 02:32, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He was scheduled to be fighting Ian Freeman on that show, but pulled out due to a money dispute. (talk) 21:15 3 September 2013. —Preceding undated comment added 20:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Place of birth discrepancy and unsourced Air Force info
I noticed a couple of issues while stopping by this article. Originally I noticed a discrepancy in place of birth, and in the process, realized a chunk of info is unsourced. The info boxes list him as born in the city of Macon, Georgia, but text of the article states he was born at Robins Air Force Base (erroneously stating the base is in Macon). The base actually borders the city of Warner Robins, Georgia, while Macon is a separate city about 20 miles away. There are no references cited when discussing his family's military/AF background or in regards to moving to Atlanta, etc. The only cited reference is in the pro wrestling info box, citing he was born in Macon. The website just says lists Macon, with no summary of early life (ie: Robins AFB). If he was born at the base, he wasn't born in Macon. It is possible that he was born at a hospital in Macon while his father was stationed at Robins, but the article doesn't discuss this or whether his family lived on base or off base in a nearby city. There are no readily available cited refs and I also checked the basic external links and none address birth/childhood. I guess it could buried in one the 100+ refs and just not cited. So there are actually 2 issues here. 1st, if he was born in Macon, he wasn't born at the base. It has to be one or the other and the article currently states both. 2nd, while trying to determine where he was actually born, I didn't find any mention at all of any military / Air Force connection. If any of you are familiar with Shamrock or happen to be the editor that included the military/AF, please pitch in to the discussion or at least list your sources. I will look more into it later, as I had just stopped fix a discrepancy and wasn't planning on extensive research. Brinkley32 (talk) 11:30, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Shamrock 1989 vs 1990 debut
"In 1988, Shamrock trained as a professional wrestler under Bob Sawyer, Buzz Sawyer and Nelson Royal. He debuted in 1990 in Royal's North Carolina-based Atlantic Coast Wrestling promotion under the ring name Wayne Shamrock."

"Horowitz finished his initial WWF run registering seven victories in 1989, including an improbable pin over Ken Shamrock in Greensboro, NC on July 29." (from Barry Horowitz's Wikipedia page which links to a match with Ken Shamrock at http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/89.htm)

If we consider the history of WWE page to be legit then it would mean that Ken Shamrock debutted as a professional wrestler in 1989. 90.198.120.64 (talk) 02:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

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WWE 13 and WWE 2K16
He was on-disc roster, not DLC, in both. Spartan198 (talk) 23:38, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

He's a '3' time WWF Intercontinental Champion
Officially he won the Intercontinental Champion once, but to me he was a 3 time World Wrestling Federation Intercontinental Champion, it's just that 2 of these reigns ended in a Dusty finish and both in 1998 and against Dwayne Johnson aka The Rock. That's my story and i'm sticking with it. Its JoeysWorld 9:42 21 October, 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.136.5.50 (talk)

Shamrock's career as a mixed martial artist has outlasted his career as a professional wrestler for so many years
Please not this in a proper way. This source which was used to back the claim that he is also best known for time in WWE, which ended before the year 2000, does not mention the WWE. However, it does mention his career in "combat sports," as well as UFC.2601:447:4000:220:C9E0:8539:80C4:EFCD (talk) 19:57, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Bob Shamrock worthy of a wiki page?
Even without Ken and Frank it seems like Bob should have a page. If I may make an observation on wiki's ideas of noteworthy, it seems as though an obscure fictional character from an obscure cartoon that ran half a season qualifies as worthy of its own page, while real people like George Barber have notability tags on their page.2600:4040:22F0:A900:5CD5:B36C:95DE:5517 (talk) 02:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)