Talk:Kennedy curse

Popular Culture
Aren't there things in popular culture, like songs and movies that relate to this? I know there is the Kennedy Jig. Anything else? 4.240.54.40 06:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought the same thing when looking at the article. Numerous Clone High jokes come to mind: "Haha! Nothing bad ever happens to the Kennedies!" Asasa64 09:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

removed

"The improbability of some repeated instances of misfortune within one family, especially two high-profile political assassinations, have prompted others to regard the "curse" as evidence either of a conspiracy against certain members of the family or of a psychological cloud (such as a pattern of risk-taking and controversy) on the family, or a negative theological influence (e.g., bad karma or a deal with the Devil)."

This is getting way to close to original research, even though it's trying hard to be phrased as NPOV. If you insist this be in the article, please find someone who is actually arguing the above statements and then put it in like this: "Journalst XYZ has argued that ______." Right now it reads like a conspiracy theorist is actually the wikipedian writing this material. --Quasipalm 21:38, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This argument has been made from time to time, especially as the consequence of the fact that the fortune of Joseph Kennedy Sr was made by rum-running. However, I will concede that it is close to original research, although it is not.  Robert McClenon 01:42, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The introduction just added is much better. Thanks anon editor.  --Quasipalm 13:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * "The Kennedy Curse refers to a series of unfortunate events that have happened to the Kennedy family. While these events could have happened to anyone, some have referred to the continual misfortune of the Kennedy family as a "curse." The improbability of so many repeated instances of misfortune within one family, especially two high-profile political assassinations, has raised questions as to whether the "curse" results from sheer bad luck or from coordinated violence against the Kennedy family."
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quasipalm (talk • contribs) 13:49, 29 August 2005

Curses vs. Stupid Behavior
???? Ginger Hair???? Why would this be a curse?

I can see why some of these, like cancer diagnoses or plane crashes can be categorized as curses, but I'm wondering why things like Joseph P. Kennedy II's jeep crash and Michael Skakel's murder conviction are listed as curses. Seems to me these are just run of the mill cases of wreckless behavior and people behaving with deliberate stupidity.24.60.184.196 01:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

And how does surviving the Chappaquiddick or being found "not guilty" of rape qualify one as "cursed"? - Nunh-huh 07:39, 30 September 2005 (UTC):

---Chappaquiddick is definitely a curse since Mary Jo was killed. Suffocated, not drowned, she took hours to die and would have lived if they'd simply have called to police right away.

It is referring to bad things happening to the family, not neccesairly things that were uncontrollable. 4.240.54.40 06:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it is stupid behavior, not a curse. But the stupid behavior may result from the way Kennedys have been brought up, which seems to be that they think of themselves as supermen who can take risks normal people don't - like an inexperienced JFK Jnr flying to Martha's Vineyard on a hazy evening. A 'born-to-rule' belief would be their real curse. Elitism 07:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I have also heard a theory that these events are due to greater risk-taking behaviour on the part of the Kennedys and, as such, this may be considered genetic. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I heard it ...

I'm particularly bemused to notice that the article cites the "curse" as related to the deaths of Jacqueline Kennedy's fetuses and newborn child. Has nobody else seen the pictures of her smoking like a chimney while carrying the child which died during JFK's presidency? That's a better explanation right there; not some "curse" dreamed up by bored reporters for tabloids. -- Orange Mike  |  Talk  18:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

And don't forget dad had VD. 86.182.38.156 (talk) 03:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC) [Interesting to know that your dad had VD. Thanks for sharing!]

I know this section has been unused for over a decade, but I think it's worth seriously rethinking whether or not it's appropriate to have someone raping another person as an example of a "family curse" on a page. That's not a curse, that is someone making the active decision to violate someone else. It's not an example of a tragically young death, it's someone raping someone else. Michael Kennedy's death is listed here as an example of the curse, but his affair with his kids' teenage babysitter (arguably also rape) isn't. Even just for the sake of consistency, I would strongly advocate for the section regarding this to just be removed, besides the fact that it's extremely disrespectful and makes someone raping someone else seem like a curse out of their control instead of an active decision to sexually assault and traumatize another human. I'd like to call attention to this if anyone else is willing to discuss it. --TariffedSparrow 06:31, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Your personal disgust with bad behavior is affecting your understanding of the purpose of the article. Michael Kennedy's inappropriate sexual behavior is not part of the "curse". His accidental death at a young age is the "curse". We don't remove something simply because of your personal opinion (or anyone's opinion) about the person's behavior. A number of members of the Kennedy family (including JFK) behaved inappropriately. We don't remove their entries because that behavior is not part of the "curse". Sundayclose (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm referring to William Kennedy, only bringing up Michael Kennedy because his behavior isn't mentioned here as an example of the curse and it feels like a double standard. Why is William Kennedy raping someone else on here at all??? That's the point I was trying to make and I apologize for the confusion. TariffedSparrow 06:16, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Why isn't Jackie's Death listed?
Because people DIE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.32.224.70 (talk) 03:08, 21 December 2008

She died of cancer in her mid-60s. What part of that is a curse? --Crunch (talk) 22:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Well; because she wasn't part of the U.S. government assassinations!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.71.95.14 (talk) 20:40, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Kathleen Kennedy's father-in-law
What about mentioning the fact that Kathleen Kennedy's father-in-law, Edward Cavendish, 10th Duke of Devonshire died in the presence of John Bodkin Adams?
 * He suffered a heart attack on 26 November 1950 while in Eastbourne, England. He was tended by his general practitioner, John Bodkin Adams, the suspected serial killer, and died in his presence. Despite the fact that the duke had not seen a doctor in the 14 days before his death, the coroner was not notified as he should have been. Adams signed the death certificate stating that the Duke died of natural causes. 13 days earlier, Mrs Edith Alice Morrell - another patient of Adams - had also died. Adams was tried in 1957 for her murder but acquitted in controversial circumstances. Home office pathologist Francis Camps linked Adams to 163 suspicious deaths in total. Malick78 11:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Further, why is her father-in-law's death mentioned, but not her husband's death in action during WWII? Pergish1 (talk) 02:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Christina Onassis
If Christina Onassis was not included as part of "The Kennedy curse" because she is not a Kennedy, then why was Anthony Onassis included?? --Sli723 Sli723 00:43 & 02:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

oi8hygbvhjnk l; — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.129.239 (talk) 06:17, 10 May 2007

Coincidence
"coincidence theory" link is incorrect -- points to a math article, not a theory of the ubiquity of coincidences as expected —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninjagecko (talk • contribs) 04:59, 5 June 2007
 * You can't be serious. This article has nothing to do in the real world???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mily22 (talk • contribs) 13:41, 13 June 2007
 * I revised the lk to point an arguably applicable article. (Note however, that this lk surely should be used in-line somewhere and the "See also" secn eliminated.)
 * BTW, the markup was Coincidence theory, so unless there were intervening edits, the source may have been vandalistic intent rather than carelessness. --Jerzy•t 21:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Poorly Researched and Sensationalist
It is quite out of the ordinary that such a page like this can exist in such a form. How does this in anyway relate to the paranormal? There is no reference of the actual curse that was apparently put of Joe P Kennedy which turned out much later to be nothing more than a story. This was later picked up by some in the media and applied to the uncommon tragedies that have occured within this Kennedy family. However tragedies themselves are subject to definition of the very word, this page has not defined what it believes constitutes a tragedy nor is there any justification for a 'curse' to be anymore deserving of anything more than a stub page with a few lines rather than this all-out sensationalist article that even lists people with the smallest connection the to the particular Kennedy family under discussion. Is it any wonder that the events of 1963 in Dallas go un-investigated in many respects when people concentrate time on building tragedies almost worthy of Shakespear! (Unitedirishman07 16/11/07) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unitedirishman07 (talk • contribs) 04:44, 17 November 2007

Why is Ted Kennedy's cancer included? He is old... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.32.224.70 (talk) 08:09, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Material moved from Kennedy family
IMO,
 * Most famously, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in 1963. Previously, his older brother Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. was killed (in a plane explosion) on a special mission toward occupied Europe in World War II. His brother, Robert F. Kennedy, was assassinated in 1968, while campaigning for the Democratic nomination for the presidency.


 * Prior to that, the late president's sister Kathleen was killed in a plane crash. Later, in the 1980s and 1990s, 2 of Robert Kennedy's 11 children, Michael Kennedy and David Kennedy, as well as JFK's only surviving son, John F. Kennedy, Jr., would each die at relatively young ages.

in Kennedy family was too much detail there that duplicates this article instead of summarizing it. I don't know if it is already covered adequately here. --Jerzy•t 04:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely Ridiculous
Unnatural acts such as plane crashes could possibly, be interpreted as, a 'curse'. But an old man in his late 70s getting cancer, following an 81 year old dying, cannot be considered anything but a natural death. How is dying at 81 being cursed? It's six years over the life expectancy, and cannot be considered evidence of a curse. If you want to list every death of the huge Kennedy family here, just post all their deaths and call it the Kennedy's obituary. If we're going to talk about the curse, keep it to unnatural or untimely deaths, not the death of someone past the life expectancy. I'm moving the old men to 'disbelief' article. I'm sure an occasional retarded kid or kid with bone cancer isn't uncommon in a huge family such as the Kennedys, but figure out their total size and whether or not those two numbers are on par with the average. TheJoak (talk) 08:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As per the above, I've completely deleted any mention of Ted Kennedy's death from a brain tumor. He was 77! How is living to 77 a "curse"? If anything him surviving two near-death experiences (the 1964 plane crash and Chappaquiddick) is evidence of a "Kennedy blessing"! YLee (talk) 06:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * While living to 77 with a brain tumor can be consideded a "curse", there's nothing supernatural about it. It's just a fact of life! --Auric (talk) 17:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Not everyone gets brain tumors, so that does classify as part of the curse. It's added and I'll keep adding it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.184.44 (talk) 05:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Not everyone gets brain tumors, but everyone dies, many in their late 70s, and many of those from cancer. There is nothing curse-like about it. --Crunch (talk) 23:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

How come we can have Edward Kennedy Jr's loss of a leg to bone cancer in the article but not Ted Kennedy's death to a brain tumor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.184.44 (talk) 05:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Plenty of 70-year-olds develop and die from cancer. It's much less likely that a young child would develop cancer and have to have a leg amputated, which is why many people attribute it to bad luck/the "Curse". This is the same reason why Patrick Bouvier Kennedy's death two days after being born is commonly considered part of the Curse, whereas Jackie Onassis's death at age 64 isn't. 98.192.174.178 (talk) 21:16, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Secondary events
I can understand listing secondary events that some may consider to be part of the curse, but Eunice died of natural causes and no one in their right mind could consider that part of a curse, secondary or not. As a result I am deleting that entry. (173.2.225.105 (talk) 17:38, 11 August 2009 (UTC))


 * Agree; this article seems like a high-value OR and POV target. Close attention needs to be paid to additions, which should stand the rigors of WP:OR and WP:NPOV.  (As if a "curse" is in any way encyclopedic...) //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:50, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and deleted the "secondary events" section completely. The existence of this article is justifiable given the mentions in reliable sources of a "Kennedy curse" (if only to debunk it), but this section was completely unjustifiable. A skiing accident? The William Kennedy Smith trial? (If anything, the fact that the guy was acquitted despite the circumstances of the case and Smith's behavior implies the existence of a "Kennedy blessing"!) YLee (talk) 02:52, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Good work. I'd just as soon see the whole thing gone, but, y'know. --jpgordon:==( o ) 20:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

David Kennedy
I'd like to argue that maybe David Kennedy's death was not a curse but perhaps a fairly normal effect of combining large quantities of cocaine and painkillers. As this is a fairly normal effect perhaps it should be removed from the list of things which make up "the curse." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Katicli (talk • contribs) 22:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps your personal opinion, as well as anyone else's, should be irrelevant here. Every entry should have a reliable source associating the event in question with something called a "Kennedy curse", or should not be here. --jpgordon:==( o ) 03:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Yellow journalistic article title
The idea that a 'common term' for a concept be based largely in its popularity, has a serious caveat - namely that it doesn't matter if seventy-two thousand tabloids and bio-gossip books have used the term "curse" - its still a term from yellow journalism.

We will do better - using the term "tragedies" for the article title, and mentioning the term "curse" only in a subsection, and we can make an honest attempt to quantify its usage. -Stevertigo 03:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Where do we define what is a "tragedy"? It's the exact same problem as "curse". --jpgordon:==( o ) 03:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "Curse" is pejorative. "Tragedy" is not, even if its a little subjective what is or isn't a tragedy. You could *try to make an argument that "tragedy" is subjective, though. -Stevertigo 04:27, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Whether Time and The Guardian are tabloids that engage in yellow journalism is strictly a matter of opinion. Maybe refer to it as a "theory"? Even Ted Kennedy referred to it during his Chappaquiddick speech so this a term that has been used since the 60's. MrBlondNYC (talk) 03:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Eh. Doesn't matter. These are tragic events, and the article itself isn't about the "curse" term - it can get into that usage a bit, but its not enough basis for an article. The term simply represents an encapsulation of unfortunate events in the lives of a particularly notable family - such that these together became a sort of discrete concept. Nowhere in that is a requirement that the "curse" terminology be dominant. -Stevertigo 04:27, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter how the term sounds or how much it's promoted by "yellow journalism". Whenever there's a problem naming a Wikipedia article, especially when it involves a "popular" term, the first place to go (at least for English-language and especially U.S. topics) is Google Book Search. There we can find reliable sources, which are the sole acceptable kinds of works to find evidence for any factual assertions in Wikipedia articles. I found well over 200 citations of the term, including at least two books with "Kennedy Curse" as their titles. This is a piece of American folklore well documented by professional authors in non-vanity-press books. I have therefore moved the article back to its original title. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jeff Q. I think the burden belongs to the people who want to change a long standing article title.  A quick Google search brings 929,000 hits, with 9 suggestions, for "Kennedy Curse".   Mytwocents (talk) 04:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It would be interesting to have an article about the theory. --jpgordon:==( o ) 04:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I appreciate Jeff Q's research. But books are no different than tabloids - you would have to go through those 200+ mentions and [*] determine if the book itself was just a sleaze bio or not. [*] is where you can plug in [some objective criteria] for determination. In addition, you would have to note how those references were used - a critical mention does not necessarily mean a promotion of the term.


 * The real issue is this: If the article were about the *term* as used in popular culture, then its usage in print will need to be documented and sourced - not just a list of what events qualify. It does not yet do this. If its about the *concept* of events as constituting some general kind of family trend - then we have to rename it.


 * Keep in mind two three things: "Trends" are legitimate topics to deal with objectively. "Curses," as discussed in popular culture are also - if the subject is the culture and not the curse. "Curses" are not legitimate concepts, unless you consider "curse" to be a misnomer for "trend," or else you want to get into the actual substance behind what a "curse" is, and how one works. Keep religion and mysticism out of it? Well then good luck explaining what a "curse" actually is, let alone explain how such unexplainable concepts are even encyclopedic - such that a repetition without cultural and colloquial context be usable here. -Stevertigo 18:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I certainly agree with Stevertigo that the 200+ books I mentioned need to be examined to see which are reasonably impartial and factual, in order to get material on which to base a proper article. I also agree that making this article specifically about the term and the myth would be a good direction, and that the current article doesn't do this. If I had 48 hours in a day, I'd love to start something by citing Penn Jones, Jr.'s early use of the term as part of his JFK assassination conspiracy theory (James & Wardlaw, Plot or Politics?: The Garrison Case and Its Cast, 1967) (Weaver, Warren: The Man, the Court, the Era, 1967); move on to how the Kennedys and their supporters began to half-believe it while publicly refuting it (Maier, The Kennedys: America's Emerald Kings, 2004) (Sorenson, "The Kennedy Curse, and Other Myths", New York Times, 23 July 1999); discuss how it came to be a media phenomenon (Carroll, The Skeptic's Dictionary, 2003) and how some have tried to analyze it (Nancy Gager Clinch, The Kennedy Neurosis, 1973) or justify it (Edward Klein, The Kennedy Curse: Why Tragedy Has Haunted America's First Family for 150 Years, 2003 – but fact-check this one!); and end with current attempts to somehow fit Ted Kennedy's late-life batter with brain cancer into the "Curse" (surely many articles, even in the mainstream press, with today's sensationalism). I hope that by citing at least several books and articles that look promising, I might entice someone who does have the time to work on this. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:21, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, we agree to agree - that the article needs work to make it substantive, and that we both have better things to do. But looking at your references, I wonder if we could refrain from largely basing one specious concept article (this one) on another (JFK conspiracy theories). ;-) -Stevertigo 18:15, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I only mentioned Jones's use of the term as the earliest occurrence I found. The subsequent history of the term, in my experience, has been as I described it in the recent AfD, "curse" meaning "string of bad events". This seems to be true whether one agonizes over the "curse" or derides its use as a kind of excuse for terrible personal decisions. Of course, my experience is completely irrelevant for proper sourcing, but even the brief skimming I did suggests that there are plenty of WP-reliable sources to be found. (But I'd also point out that conspiracy theories are often well-documented by reliable sources, without suggesting that they're true.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 09:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

An editor changed the name of the article to "Kennedy tragedies" without seeking further discussion here. I suggest that it be reverted. Ylee (talk) 01:43, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Jacqueline Kennedy Miscarriage
Can someone explain to me why Jacqueline Kennedy suffering a miscarriage is considered a curse? Pregnant women have miscarriages all the time. I suggest this be deleted. (Actually I suggest the whole article be deleted, since it's based on a not-easily definable set of criteria, but that's another issue). --Crunch (talk) 23:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * We report what reliable sources print. 207.69.140.51 (talk) 23:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Please explain what this means in the context of Jacqueline Kennedy's miscarriage being characterized as a family curse. Also, who is the "we" of whom you speak? --Crunch (talk)


 * I have removed the information about the stillbirth of Arabella. I'm not sure this is the same case, but the argument still applies. It is not uncommon.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:06, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Joseph P. Kennedy Stroke
Why is a man suffering a stroke at age 73 considered a curse, especially someone like Kennedy who smoked and drank heavily which are contributing factors to stroke? Please explain or delete. --Crunch (talk) 23:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Especially 50 years ago, indeed. But see, that's the problem with this awful article; the decision to include or exclude someone from the list seems to be mostly individual opinion. --jpgordon:==( o ) 22:25, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. The notion of what constitutes a "curse" seems impossible to define. --Crunch (talk) 22:28, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * But it is not up to us to define a "curse". When reliable sources have consistantly used the term to describe the events that happened, we follow the sources. -- The Red Pen of Doom  22:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

What multiple reliable sources are defining the stroke as part of the "curse?" Not that the stroke happened. Not that the stroke was a tragedy. But that the stroke was a "curse." Multiple reliable sources, please. --Crunch (talk) 23:28, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I was responding to your more general statement: "The notion of what constitutes a "curse" seems impossible to define" than to any particulars about what should and should not be included. -- The Red Pen of Doom  00:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, I agree with that. It still does not seem like old man's stroke is generally part of the curse believers' repertoire. --Crunch (talk) 00:27, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Ted Kennedy
I understand that dying at age 77 is nothing unusual, but brain cancer is definitely worth listing as part of the "curse." I've heard of people categorizing plane crashes as "nothing unusual" as well yet JFK Jr's. death is in this group. (MHB210 (talk) 08:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC))
 * Cancer is the second most-common cause of death among Americans of Kennedy's age. There's nothing particularly unusual about it. By contrast, plane crashes are quite rare. YLee (talk) 09:04, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What about the fact, that he died just less than two weeks after his sister ? LogicBloke (talk) 16:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

His sister was 88. He was 77. They'd both been sick for a long time with common illnesses that afflict the elderly (cardiovascular disease and cancer, respectively). Sad coincidence? Sure. Some kind of curse? Not at all. --Crunch (talk) 16:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * 88 isn't that old. Turtles for example can live to be over 150. Anything that lives for less time than its ultimate potential is a tragedy. I for example, will only live to be about 76. Cursed, perhaps. Tragic, certainly. -Stevertigo 18:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This page is long enough, please don't waste our time, with frivolous and juvenille comments such as the age of turtles. --Crunch (talk) 19:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Well I believe at least the DIAGNOSIS deserves a mention, if not the death. I personally see this as another extension of the curse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MHB210 (talk • contribs) 07:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * There's nothing particularly horrific (or "cursey") about a brain tumor as opposed to one in the lungs, bone marrow, liver, or anywhere else. For a man of Kennedy's age, there is no "good cancer." Again, this is not unusual in any way. YLee (talk) 07:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Unless we're engaging in original research, the idea of this article should be only to repeat what believers in the Kennedy Curse have stated constitute events that make up the so-called Curse. Have any credible Curse believers stated that Ted Kennedy getting cancer was part of their Curse theory? As far as I know, they have not. --Crunch (talk) 13:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "credible curse believers"? sheesh. --jpgordon:==( o ) 15:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that does sound funny. What I'm getting is that article is about describing the notion of the curse, whether or not we believe in it. Whoever started the idea of the curse I don't think included things like old people dying of strokes or cancer. --Crunch (talk) 15:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Ted's death should not be included. Otherwise we would list everyone who died in their old age.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:56, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Ted Kennedy/Chappaquiddik
This is listed as part of the "Kennedy Curse" and a tragedy. But I don't see how it's a Kennedy family tragedy - he walked away from a car wreck and what is at least manslaughter without a scratch and had a long and (in his view) successful public career. I suggest removing the reference, or moving it to a page about the "Kopecne" curse24.130.56.92 (talk) 03:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Kopecne was attached to the curse because of Ted's involvement in the accdident. When concidering tragedies, one must also remember that when someone you know is killed or seriously injured, it is a tragedy as well. In the context of curses, the crash occured because a Kennedy was there, Ted was just lucky enough to survive it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.183.48.21 (talk) 18:56, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I think what matters is that sources have linked this to the Kennedy Curse. In reality, the curse doesn't exist.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:34, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Family relationships
Reading the article, I noticed I had to keep going all the time to other articles to discover who is who and what the family relationships are. Perhaps most readers are knowledgeable about the details of the Kennedy family, but I for one am not, for example, I did not know who Rosemary Kennedy, Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr., Kathleen Cavendish, David Kennedy, William Kennedy Smith, and Michael LeMoyne Kennedy were or are and how they were related to JFK and others mentioned, and the article did not tell. I suppose I'm not the only ignorant reader and that there are others, in particular readers who did not grow up in the USA. Therefore, to spare such other readers the effort I had to go through – which did not make for a smooth reading experience – I added the most essential family relationships to the article. However, this was soon reverted, with the argument: People who want the exact relationship can read individual members' articles. Yes, and that was the whole point; of course they can, but do they have to in order to be able to follow this article? We also write
 * "Castelnuovo della Daunia is a town and comune in the province of Foggia in the Apulia region of southeast Italy",

and not just
 * "Castelnuovo della Daunia is a town and comune in the province of Foggia",

using the argument that people who want to know where the Foggia that is can read the article.

Other opinions? Unless a consensus emerges that the article is better off without indication of the family relationships, I will re-revert. --Lambiam 18:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm late to the discussion, but believe that the family relationships do not belong in the article.

If people want to know the exact nature of an entry's relation to the other members of the Kennedy family, they should indeed read the specific article and/or Kennedy family, which explains the relationships in detail. This article is not the place to provide such information unless it is relevant to discussing the "curse" in some way. YLee (talk) 23:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * They are redundant. We do not need to read a dozen times that so and so is a cousin/nephew/sister/child of John F. Kennedy. Given that the article is about the Kennedy family, the fact that everyone mentioned is related to or has some connection to JFK and other Kennedys is a given. In the Italy example, it is appropriate in a single entry with no previous context to indicate a city's country. By contrast, List of cities in Italy by population does not bother to mention after each entry that it is in Italy.
 * Speaking of JFK, why should he be the focal point? It seems to me to be verging on WP:OR to arbitrarily choose him and not Robert F. Kennedy, who was also assassinated, or Joseph P. Kennedy, the family patriarch, or Ted Kennedy, who served in the Senate for more than three times as long as his brothers put together and for more than 30 years was the last surviving, nationally prominent member of the core Kennedy family.


 * I agree with the original poster. It's particularly confusing in the case of Martha Moxley.--Jack Upland (talk) 17:00, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Dates Inconsistent
The dates are sometimes that of the birth and some of the death, why are they so inconsistent. --Iankap99 (talk) 00:52, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you cite the examples?--Wlmg (talk) 00:55, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoops, my mistake, Ted Kennedy just in'st listing his tumor.--Iankap99 (talk) 00:59, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I would doubt Ted Kennedy's tumor would qualify as inclusion under the "Kennedy Curse". He already lived an average-length lifespan at the time of the tumor. I'll look for a WP:RS anyways. --Wlmg (talk) 01:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

John K' assassination
The text quotes that "J.F.K was assassinated at Dallas, by Oswald etc. I propose to remove the latter part, as nobody in his right mind believes that he actually was murdered by Lee Harvey Oswald...--Alexandre Rongellion (talk) 01:23, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What you propose is problematic as it would introduce conspiracy theories on the JFK assassination. There are other wikipedia pages for that, and this page is specifically about the "Kennedy Curse". --Wlmg (talk) 03:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No. TaintedMustard (talk) 23:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There is currently a paragraph about the assassination which gives weight to the conspiracy theory. I don't think this is necessary.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:21, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Delete this article now
I think this entire ridiculous article should be deleted, and everyone involved in its creation and expansion should hang their heads in shame for believing in stone-age superstitious nonsense. A bunch of people in a family died over a period of time. It's called coincidence. It's also called life. Sd31263 (talk) 16:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree totally, Sd. We should not give respectability to a non-topic that generates such vacuous claims. Valetude (talk) 19:02, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
 * You're right about the curse, but that's no reason to delete the article. The Bermuda Triangle is also nonsense, but we have an article about it.--Jack Upland (talk) 17:20, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Right. The articles are about the concepts, which, as concepts, are undeniable realities. The articles do not say that there is any reality to the metaphysical events claimed in these concepts. But I have to go further in saying that to call the metaphysical "nonsense", "vacuous", and so on, based on nothing but preconceived opinion is utterly unscientific in itself. 92.218.236.35 (talk) 13:50, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Non-neutral text
"preventable reckless choices like...choosing such relatively dangerous careers as military service or politics." I know we aren't trying to promote the idea of an actual curse here, but this is just ridiculous. "Many of the tragedies" also seems inaccurate, seeing as only a few or even one are attributed to the listed causes. What seems in order is a rewrite of the first paragraph to be one that is not actively going out of its way to debunk the supposed "curse", but one that simply makes note of the number of unusual tragedies associated with the family and the idea of a curse. Most readers will know on their own that curses are a superstition. 165.134.208.176 (talk) 22:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * If you see something wrong, YOU CAN FIX IT! You may wish to write a "proposed draft" of your new lead and post it in a subsection below for comments. And then after getting any feedback, move it to the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom  22:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Most recent addition
The newest addition to this list is 'Mary Richardson Kennedy hanged herself on the grounds of her home located in Bedford, Westchester County, New York.' Anyone who follows that link will see that Mary Richardson Kennedy is not notable enough to have her own Wikipedia article. Should she really be included? Yes, it's true her death was reported by the media as being part of the 'Kennedy curse', but it's also clear by this point that the 'curse' story has become self-perpetuating. Mary Kennedy was an obscure figure - her death wouldn't even have been reported if she had been married to anybody else, it was simply the fact that she had been married to a Kennedy, and so could be claimed as part of the alleged 'curse', that made it worth reporting. By including her here, we're only encouraging the media tendency to jump on any misfortune affecting someone with the surname 'Kennedy' and call it part of the curse. Robofish (talk) 19:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * In that respect, this article reminds me a bit of the '27 club' - some of the people on that list aren't actually notable by our standards, they're only mentioned because they've been used as evidence of an alleged tendency for musicians to die at age 27. Robofish (talk) 19:21, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. She should not be included based on info you provided. JanetGoesWiki (talk) 10:21, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

The Kennedy Curse and Antisemitism
Orthodox Jewish people have a few versions of a tale, about JFK's father being antisemitic (as US ambassador to the UK, failing to assist German Jews in the early 30's, thwarting attempts of American Jewry to allow immigration of Jewish refugees from Europe during WWII), pro Nazi (selling weapons to the Nazis during WWII, prior to the US entering the war), or just being nasty to Jews (demanding that they do not pray during a cruise on a ship), and thus received "the curse" from Jews, in most versions from an important rabbi, or a group of rabbis. In most accounts the rabbi named is Rabbi Aharon Kotler. The Chabad movement tells it of their leader Rabbi Yosef Jacobson. See this discussion on ChabadTalk for many different versions of the story.

פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 07:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if this "tale" is notable, but it would be valid to include any notable folklore about the origin of the curse, as the Bermuda Triangle article includes theories explaining the alleged phenomenon. It's not clear, as the article stands, to what extent the notion of the "curse" is just a journalistic hook to hang a story on, a figure of speech, or an actual superstitition. Do the books written about the curse actually assert it is real?--Jack Upland (talk) 11:09, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Revert to 'curse'
I think this topic should be treated the same as the Bermuda Triangle -  a notional entity that has become part of common folklore, due to certain events that may or may not be connected. It has achieved enough prominence in the media to warrant a Wiki page analyzing its possible validity. Valetude (talk) 16:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed. An editor renamed the article in 2011 without discussion on Talk. It really needs to be reverted to its original title. In fact, I think I'll do it myself. Ylee (talk) 17:24, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Done. My thanks to Anthony Appleyard for handling the technical details. Ylee (talk) 02:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Grady
I've removed this source:. It seems to be an emotional reaction to the death of JFK Jr. Most of the incidents can't be attributed to "hubris" or "too much macho". I don't think that this adds much to the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:20, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I concur with this assessment. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:08, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Infants
How do you deal with Jackie's miscarriage in 1955 or stillbirth in 1956? Not exactly common, but it does happen. I see her son Patrick is listed but not his miscarried/stillborn siblings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.63.124.202 (talk) 07:40, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not uncommon. We really shouldn't include any event unless a reliable source says it is part of the curse.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:33, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Kennedy curse
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Kennedy curse's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "bg-series-3": From Chappaquiddick incident:  From Ted Kennedy: Also published in the book The Last Lion: The Fall and Rise of Ted Kennedy, Simon & Schuster, 2009, chapter 3. From Mary Jo Kopechne:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 06:34, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Fitzpatrick/Fitzgerald
I've just lightly copyedited the paragraph in the "Origins" section about an alleged curse in 1840s Ireland. However, it still contains one glaring error in the reference to "Thomas Fitzpatrick, paternal grandfather of Rose Kennedy". Rose's maiden name was Fitzgerald, which would therefore have been the surname of her paternal grandfather. Is that an error in the cited source, or by the editor who added this? I know this is folkloric nonsense, and the cited source is hardly a reliable one, but it would be good to get the basic facts right. GrindtXX (talk) 12:36, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The source says Fitzgerald. I've corrected it.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:16, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2020
Remove: "However, in 1979, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded that the assassination was the result of a conspiracy and that Oswald did not act alone." This is inaccurate and a conspiracy theory. The HSCA report says the assassination was "probably" the result of a conspiracy and that there was a "high probability" that Oswald did not act alone. Thus, this belief should not be treated as fact that has been "concluded." Additionally, several members of the committee dissented from the finding of a possible conspiracy or multiple shooters.

RoryGilmore28 (talk) 03:29, 12 April 2020 (UTC) RoryGilmore28 (talk) 03:29, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , the article is no longer protected, you can now edit the page. – Thjarkur (talk) 12:17, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

missing tidbits:
john f kennedy crashed his red convertible. later, he crashed his pt109 boat; that is, it was run over by a japanese warship. it has been said that if it werent for who his father was, he would have been courtmartialed; instead he got a medal, a book, and a movie. the book was by john hershey, who was dating his sister at the time.

rose kennedy's father, john "honey" fitzgerald, was expelled from congress in 1922. the papers of the investigation were recently released, i havent seen them.

ted kennedy was expelled from harvard for cheating on a spanish exam by sending someone else to takea test for him.

2601:48:C601:50E0:D9CE:5FCE:C460:D804 (talk) 01:31, 17 September 2020 (UTC)gtbear@gmail.com


 * All unsourced gossip/speculation except for Ted Kennedy's expulsion (and subsequent reinstatement), Fitzgerald wasn't expelled from Congress (he wasn't even a Congressman in 1922), and none of these "tidbits" amount to a "curse." And it was Hersey, not Hershey, who wrote a fictionalized account of the PT109 and Kennedy.   Acroterion   (talk)   02:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Kennedy Curse is deeper in time.
Looking at the genealogy, second generation Kennedys also experienced tragedies. Two older siblings died in 1926 and two younger siblings died in 1929, plus the death of an infant sibling with the fated name of John. Two siblings of JFK and RFK (Jack and Bobby) both died in 2009. JanetGoesWiki (talk) 10:25, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * See WP:NOR, sources must explicitly describe it as such. Your inference is not admissible.  Acroterion   (talk)   12:08, 2 February 2022 (UTC)