Talk:Kenny Klein/Archive 1

Untitled
Please see guidelines on autobiograpies.--Vidkun 14:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I have done some extreme editing on this page to try to bring it closer to up to snuff. Will see what I can do to get some references for the first half. --Bill W. Smith, Jr. (talk/contribs) 15:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Expanded article
I've expanded the discography section, adding a sub-section of the subject's work in the team of Kenny & Tzipora, and added several titles both in and outside of that sub-section. I've also rearranged the text to eliminate some repetitious language, and separated the subject's Neopagan activities into a separate section. I've added a few categories as well; a few more relating to his specific instruments (guitar, violin and mandolin) would be welcome. And I've cleaned up the language, deleted redlinks, changed "Kenny" to "he" or "Klein" where appropriate, etc. I hope to add some citations soon, 3rd-party ones if possible. The Neopagan activities section can certainly use some expansion, and I believe there are Witchvox articles and other sources available. I'm looking for more K&S titles on cassette, and suspect a few of the CDs are reissued from earlier tape releases.

I'm not sure whether to include info on Kenny's marriage to Tzipora, their divorce, and the names (or at least existence) of their two children. Tzipora might rate a section of her own in this article, or more likely in the article about the Blue Star tradition (where she is mentioned), or something, but I don't know where to begin. As far as I know, she has no solo musical recordings, but she is the author of Celebrating Life: Rites of Passage For All Ages through Delphi Press, and she is credited in various places as a liturgist and songwriter. Perhaps I'll leave that to someone else. Rosencomet (talk) 23:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I don't have a wikipedia account, but i frequently edit articles, especially for grammar, syntax, and spelling. I knew Kenny and Tzippy from the mid-80s through the early 90s. It seems weird NOT to mention that they were married, had two kids (leaving their names out), and divorced. It's supposed to be a biography, not a whitewash or puff piece. Lilinah, 23 January 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.41.10.20 (talk) 03:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Sources and notability
This article remains woefully undersourced in terms of reliable sources. And Kenny Klein's WP notability remains questionable to my mind. A Google Scholar search currently finds 17 hits but less than a handful of them are for this Kenny Klein. A targeted Google news search for his name and music (which is probably his more notable achievements) currently returns 35 hits but, again, few of them seem applicable here. Cheers, Pigman ☿/talk 19:01, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not an unbiased observer, but Kenny Klein was a major influence (along with his then-wife Tzipora) in the spread of the Blue Star Tradition across the country. Without him, it is unlikely the Tradition would be as widespread as it is (international--US, Canada, UK, Ireland, Switzerland) or as numerous.  I've heard it said that some of this notability may accrue more to the Tradition than to him, but his influence adds to his notability.  Given that he is also a multiply-published author, I think we can consider him sufficiently notable.  I believe someone's been adding citations to the article, too, but I haven't checked them for reliability.
 * * Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 22:53, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Arrest
An anonymous first-time editor copypasted the entire article from nola.com into this page. I've cut it to bare facts in order to avoid COPYVIO issues, and moved it to the end of the page. It is not normal for an arrest to be the first thing in an article unless that arrest is the defining item that makes someone notable.

DISCLAIMER: I am personally acquainted with Kenny Klein, and am therefore not a purely disinterested party, but am striving to keep this article's point of view neutral.

* Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 11:46, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think that would fall under WP:BLPCRIME, and thus, it should possibly be removed, as this is not a conviction.
 * After reviewing WP:BLPCRIME I believe including information about this incident is premature, but in the interim an anonymous editor removed the section. The policy does not say "if the article purports that the suspect admitted it, it's okay."  It's clear to me that conviction or at least the entry of a guilty plea is the minimum standard here.--~TPW 23:39, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The sudden flurry of interest in this page is understandable, but I'm going to step back and just monitor for a while unless I see something truly egregious. I'm pretty sure I can be objective, but I don't want to give even the appearance of POV editing. Thanks for your attention to this, TPW, and for pointing out the WP:BLPCRIME: I hadn't had occasion to encounter it before. I hope there are other experienced editors who are also keeping a weather eye on this.
 * * Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 17:53, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It's likely that there will come a time when the details must be reinserted, but hopefully the sources will be substantive enough to provide the best possible balance. In the meantime, I will post a note at Wikiproject Neopaganism, although it's been a bit inactive there of late.  (As a side note, Septegram, I'm sure that project would love your participation, if you're not already involved.)--~TPW 21:54, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone know if this has gone to trial or been settled via plea? In the days after the news broke, there was coverage that he admitted the child pornography was his, but I don't recall seeing that an official plea had been entered or a trial date set. Also in the days following his arrest, his children and other family and former friends have come forward about the history here. In the past I have questioned whether Klein was really notable enough for WP inclusion, but I think in the small pond of Wicca and Neopaganism, he passed the "college professor test." Now the child pornography arrest, and the large network of pornographers arrested in the ring, may unfortunately turn out to be the most notable thing about him. I think at this point we should be looking into adding info on the charges if there is sufficient sourcing. Oh, I have also deleted from the article some statements made only by Klein, on his personal website, which I know to be untrue. Can't source a negative, but his claims of a relationship with someone who was never close with him, certainly never took him on as a student, and would really not want to be associated with him, even after her death, are not WP:RS or WP:V. - Co rb ie V  ☊ 22:31, 28 October 2014 (UTC)


 * It had not been settled by plea as of a few days ago. I don't have access to my source while I'm at work, but I'll try to add a link to the Talk page later on.
 * * Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 20:38, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Progress of the trial can be monitored through the Master Docket - Holzman-Tweed (talk) 15:30, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Say,, I was just looking at this page and your reference above to the "college professor test" caught my eye. By that, do you mean "something a college professor knowledgeable in the subject would know about?" I'm not familiar with the expression, and now I'm curious.
 * Thanks,
 * * Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 23:05, 19 January 2016 (UTC)


 * It used to be somewhere in or related to the Notability guidelines. Something about, "are they as notable as a college professor at a (whatever criteria) university?" So it's not about being knowledgeable, it's about how many people know of them and their work, and how influential has their work been. Of course, I can't find it in the guidelines now, so I guess consensus had it that it wasn't that good of a guideline. - Co rb ie V    ☊ ☼ 01:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

sourcing
Just googling < Kenneth Klein pornography > turns up multiple mainstream news stories on the arrest, including his admission that the materials were his. There is also Neopagan coverage that includes statements from his former family members. I don't see any updates on the case, however. - Co rb ie V  ☊ 22:50, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * As I noted when this first came about, the minimum needed per WP:BLPCRIME is a conviction or guilty plea. I'm removing the section . . . again.  Have patience.--~TPW 02:53, 10 July 2015 (UTC)


 * To keep an eye on the case, here's a link to the docket: http://www.opcso.org/dcktmstr/dmdspscn.php?d1scnn=773987
 * Frankly, I think this is relevant information, and the guidelines do not require a conviction or guilty plea -- but I am a friend of Tzipora, so I'll leave it to others Aemathisphd (talk) 23:52, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I agree that a mention of the trial would be appropriate to include, but I'll go with the consensus here either way. Since this is a developing situation and you're following the case, if you could post links to news coverage here, that would really help with sourcing. It would also help other editors make an informed decision about when it's time to put something about the case in the article. Thanks! - Co rb ie V  ☊☼ 17:53, 10 October 2015 (UTC) P.S. I agree that WP:BLPCRIME is clear, and I respect that. I admit I feel this case is in a bit of a grey area as there was an admission of guilt on Klein's part. However, I don't know if the admission of guilt happened in a context that is comparable to entering a formal plea. My impression is that it was an admission to the police while he was being arrested. How this will pan out in the formal plea and trial I don't yet know. I'm just waiting to read the news, like most others here. - Co rb ie V  ☊☼ 17:59, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

New docket number here;  - BenBurch (talk) 15:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Next hearing 12/04. --BenBurch (talk) 18:25, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Next hearing 1/21/16 -- BenBurch (talk) 02:44, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Next hearing 3/11/16 --BenBurch (talk) 00:49, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Pre-trial conference set for 03/29/16 --69.47.82.1 (talk) 00:41, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Next hearing 6/14/16 --BenBurch (talk) 21:40, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

TRIAL SET FOR 08/15/16 --BenBurch (talk) 02:48, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

OK, trial did not go off on schedule. Prosecution notified court that evidence of past sexual abuse by the defendant was going to be presented. Defense notified that a computer expert was going to be called in and that would take a couple weeks. New trial set for Sept. 28th. Defense filed motion on 404(B). --BenBurch (talk) 15:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Does WP:BLP or WP:BLPCRIME say anything about putting things on the Talk page instead of the article? Are we going to run afoul of that, particularly with the trial chronology posted by BenBurch above?
 * * Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 19:38, 26 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Nope --BenBurch (talk) 21:07, 26 August 2016 (UTC)


 * And in any case, Klein is clearly WP:WELLKNOWN and this could be on the main page. --BenBurch (talk) 21:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)


 * As noted above, I'm not on the legal team, but everything linked to here is a matter of public record. I don't see how there's a problem linking to public documents, especially as it's only on the talk page. The fact that he's changed his initial admission of guilt, or what was reported in the press/sources as an admission of guilt (he did change his formal plea at arraignment or at some other point, didn't he?) complicates things a bit. I'll look at the policy again when I get a chance, but I don't see any problem with discussing matters of public record here on the talk page. -  Co rb ie V    ☊ ☼ 14:41, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Per WP:WELLKNOWN, if it is well-sourced, I am still of the opinion that it is worth mentioning in the article that he's been charged. But I understand if people want to wait till the trial is happening. Either way, it should go in here eventually as at this point it's probably the most well-known thing about him. For those who would argue he's best known as a figure in the modern pagan community, in-group coverage in that subculture shows that his arrest caused a pretty major uproar and debate in that subculture around issues of sexual predation, secrecy and related issues. So there is both mainstream and in-group published sourcing on this. - Co rb ie V    ☊ ☼ 14:48, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I am working up a paragraph with references about the arrest and pending trial. --BenBurch (talk) 15:13, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Hearing 9/6/16 on defense motions. --BenBurch (talk) 00:37, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Appears to be ongoing... http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/04/new_orleans_jury_visibly_distu.html Centerone (talk) 04:30, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * And a slightly different article from the same source: http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/04/child_porn_trial_opens_for_new.html
 * * Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 13:34, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Sentencing postponed to allow the Court to respond to post-verdict motions by 2017.05.04. Sentencing set for 2017.05.12.
 * * Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 17:57, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Died Saturday, 11 July 2020, reportedly
There are posts going around on social media to this effect, and some IPs have tried to add unsourced details to this article. This is the only source I've seen so far that is WP:V: The Wild Hunt: Pagan Community Notes: Klein dies in prison. While I think the reports at this point are credible, I'd like something a bit more solid to say we have it confirmed to WP:RS standards. Maybe let's wait till the Bureau of Prisons has updated their site? Because even though this third-party site has published it, as far as I can tell, their actual source is still a private Facebook post. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 20:44, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

So, there is a Presumed Dead template. I've added that. If for some reason he's not dead, or if you think TWH and the other info coming out isn't reliable enough, feel free to revert. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 21:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

on your choice to revert. If you don't consider the source RS, OK, but it's not WP:OR. The thing is, this guy was not really notable outside of a small sector of the neopagan community. Klein himself started this article, so COI, then it was promoted by a spammer/astroturfer. "Coverage" continues to be blogs and other social media. After the child porn conviction, most are not going to devote much energy to discussing him if they don't feel compelled to, so I doubt there's going to be much coverage. What level of sourcing would you like to see to list him as presumed dead? I think at this point that if the death reports were in any way a mistake, someone would have said something. And yes, I know the criteria of WP:RS. It's more about the fact that the guy wasn't really notable to start with. With him being a marginal figure, I think we're in a marginal area when it comes to sourcing. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 00:09, 20 July 2020 (UTC)


 * OK, if there is zero response to this, I think it might be best to revert to presumed dead. That's what the template is for. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 21:52, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If there had been any mistake in the reporting of his death, it would have been corrected by now. Other blogs have picked it up. I think that, due to the nature of his convictions, it's just not getting coverage. The user who reverted the "presumed dead" status, which is made for just this sort of situation, has not responded. So, it's seems most appropriate to revert. If the source announcing his death is not notable enough to source his death, neither are the sources indicating his notability to be on WP. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 22:55, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Wild Hunt is not a blog; it is a news site with an editorial structure in line with sites set up to cover larger communities. It is a reliable source. ~TPW 11:04, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

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