Talk:Kent Stage

WP:RS
The more outside, third-party reliable sources anyone can get for this, the better. That will help establish its notability outside self-published sources. The Kent, Ohio article has some of its own sources for the stage that may be of use. --JonRidinger (talk) 22:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

List of names
The list need not be exhaustive. Articles shouldn't just be a list of groups to perform at a certain venue. A small list can be appropriate, but just to give the reader a general idea of what kind of acts the facility has hosted. I would also include not just the names but also what type of music the artist is associated with if you really want to give readers an idea of the different kinds of acts. Simply listing the names means a reader must click on each name they are not familiar with. Even being familiar with the Kent Stage, I am not familiar with most of the performers in the list and was pleasantly surprised so many of them have Wikipedia articles. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:11, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the list is "exhaustive" as it currently stands, and I'm familiar with all of those names. The only reason I visit Kent, Ohio, once or twice a year is because the Kent Stage is there, and I was surprised there wasn't an article about it before, so that's why I started the page. Leepaxton (talk) 02:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Since the article is still very early in its development, the list initially completely dominated it and in its original form was simply copied from the Kent Stage website (which is why the bot put the copyright problem tag on the page). The list as it stands now is a good amount, though I don't think it even needs to be that long.  It just needs to give a basic idea of who has performed there and that it has hosted a number of notable artists.  Like I said, as a reader not familiar with many of the names, I know just looking at the list it doesn't mean a whole lot to me because I don't know who many of those people are, why they're notable, or what they perform.  I would imagine there are other readers, especially those not familiar with the Kent Stage at all, who would look at this and find it uninformative without going to each article for the individual.  While the performers listed have Wikipedia articles, that doesn't translate into universal acclaim or recognition.  If you look at the Kent, Ohio section, that can give you somewhat of an idea of what I'm talking about.  It doesn't just list everyone notable from Kent, it gives just a little mention of why they're notable and what they are/were involved in (athletes, inventor, political, etc.).  That's all.  Thanks for starting the article! --JonRidinger (talk) 05:00, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, that's why those names are linked to the articles of those who have performed there of note in their style(s) of music, and each article describes the type of music performed by that musician or group and why they are notable. I don't see this as uninformative, quite the contrary, but I'll try and discuss types of music and explain what I'm getting at here.  From what I've seen, the types of music primarily performed at the Kent Stage are as follows:  folk, traditional, roots, acoustic, blues, singer-songwriter, rock, country, bluegrass, and progressive bluegrass, among others, but they are also trying to branch out into other genres as well.  Each of the pages about specific musical genres either list or mention a number of different artists in those genres.  I thought that listing some of the actual performers of note who have performed at the Kent Stage would be better than being too vague or getting into any musicological discussions.  Not only that, but many artists perform music that belongs in more than one genre (or a combination of genres).  Plus, the Kent Stage is trying to keep their options open to playing all different types of music.  For example, they didn't always have much rock music early on, but they are trying to get more of that, and I don't think they want to limit themselves too much as far as the types of music performed there.  Honestly, I probably never would've spent time in Kent if this venue didn't exist, and I must admit that I really like the venue also.  It's not a fancy place, or anything like that, but the performance space is small and you really get an intimate show there (listen to the audio of this Peter Rowan & Tony Rice performance to see what I mean).  Most of the time, you even get to have a few words with the performer(s) either before or after the show.  The folks involved with this place are good people too, and I think it's a positive thing.  I think that anyone who has a place like this in their community and doesn't at least try and check it out is probably missing out, but that's my opinion.  So, I will reiterate my view that the list is good because it demonstrates more specifically who has played at the Kent Stage and the types of performers who play there.  I edited the list of performers so the one that is currently displayed isn't exactly like the one on the Kent Stage's website, but I would like to point out that even though the original list was, as you said, "simply copied from the Kent Stage website (which is why the bot put the copyright problem tag on the page)", I would like to remind the bot (and anyone else who may be interested) that, for the record, I cited the original list as the source.  It's not like I just copied and pasted the list of performers and didn't cite it to the Kent Stage's website.  It was cited.  Then, I mixed the order up a little bit, then someone gutted the list (for fear of copyright violation regarding a list of 29 names of notable musicians who have performed there, even though it was cited and sourced to the website of this particular non-profit organization), so I added some different names as well as a different order of some of the more well-known performers with Wikipedia pages linked, and now it's a different list that shouldn't be in violation of any copyright (real or imagined).  Anyhow, I think those performers are notable.  I've seen most of them, and they're all good.  But, don't just take it from me, listen to their music and decide for yourself.  I think that's the spirit of the Kent Stage and organizations like it too.  I think places such as this help enrich our culture, and that is why I think they are important enough to have pages on Wikipedia. Leepaxton (talk) 09:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but just FYI, even citing a source does not give an editor the right to cut and paste text from another website here; that is why the bot put the tag. The text would have to be in quotes and such and really, it's better to just summarize and avoid any threat of copyright altogether, so now there isn't any problem.  In reading your response I think you missed my point.  The main point is to expand the list not in names but in info so it is more than just a list of people.  The point of this article is to provide information about the Kent State, not just redirect people to other articles about the performers, particularly many who have very low notability.  That is why expanding the list to state some kind of general info about the performers (which can be found at their Wikipedia articles) would be better than just a list of the 20 or so people there.  That they may have played other styles of music when they performed is irrelevant; it's what they're known for that is most important and why they were likely sought after to play there.  An example would be this: "Many notable artists have performed at the Kent Stage, including rock and roll singer Bo Diddley, folk singer and activist Joan Baez..." etc.  When several artists are from the same genre (like folk music) they can be listed together.  Nothing elaborate, but far less dry and uniformative than a simple list.  That can also help trim the raw number of people down to show the variety of genres that have performed there. --JonRidinger (talk) 16:04, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I still disagree with the policy that citing relatively small lists from other websites is considered improper, even when cited, and I feel this is an example of overly stringent copyright policy. But, that doesn't matter now, because the list is no longer the same as the one on the Kent Stage's website.  Also, I disagree with the notion that the list doesn't, for the time being, accurately represent the types of musicians who perform at the Kent Stage and thus the types of music performed there (many of those names are nearly synonymous with certain styles).  I certainly think it is better to discuss names that are linked, than being vague and just discussing genres without discussing the specifics of who actually plays there.  I think discussing both the musicians who have played there as well as the different musical genres that they play is a good idea though, and hopefully that sort of material will be added to the article soon.  Though, most people who know about American music of the past 50 years probably know about Bo Diddley and Joan Baez, for example, and if not they can click on their names and read about them (that's the nice thing about an online encyclopedia with links).  They are relatively well-known to most musicians and music fans of various types and styles.  I agree with you that more in-depth analysis and discussion of some of the more well-known performers at the venue could and probably should be added to the article, sure, but for the time being people can click the links and read about those artists on their pages, and I really just started this Kent Stage article to get the ball rolling on this subject.  I certainly didn't think any discussion relating to this article would be as in-depth as this has become (especially in such a short time).  But, I am glad we've been able to discuss the Kent Stage, and hopefully others can add to this article and improve it over time.  I think the Kent Stage is a good place.  So, yeah, I'm biased, since I like the place, and that might be in violation of some policy on here too, haha, but if liking places like the Kent Stage is "wrong" then I don't want to be "right".  It's a nice venue, and any town should be glad to have a place like it.  I have enjoyed some good times at the Kent Stage (free advertisement), and have enjoyed eating at places near there like the Pufferbelly, Ray's Place, and that place by the Zephyr Pub called the Franklin Square Deli.  Also, I like that little book shop called Last Exit Books across the street and not far from the venue.  There's free parking behind the Kent Stage for performances, and some people might not know about that, but there is usually enough parking spaces back there. Leepaxton (talk) 04:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the little ads for Kent (though do keep in mind these talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article) :). To answer your comments, while they may seem overly stringent, copyright laws have made that the reality.  Wikipedia wants to avoid any potential copyright problems, no matter how far they seem.  It's a moot point for this article now, but is something to keep in mind for any future edits.  As for the expansion of the list, I never said it didn't "accurately represent the types of musicians who perform at the Kent Stage."  I simply said the list is dry and does very little to explain who the artists are or why they're important.  Remember, Wikipedia is for a very broad, worldwide audience, so we can't assume that someone knows who someone is just because we assume "most people who know about American music of the past 50 years probably know..."  We have to assume readers here know very little about American music and the list of performers in general.  And while having the links to other articles is a nice bonus and adds a lot to the experience of finding information, it isn't an excuse to keep info low in one article.  Each article should be able to stand on its own.  That doesn't mean we needs tons of details on each performer, but like I said, a little line before each one.  Like I said in the "Notable residents and natives" of the Kent, Ohio article or any article that has a list of people, it is definitely preferred to have a little bit of info as to why they are notable and thus included in the list/paragraph.  It's part of making the article being able to stand on its own.  If people want more in-depth info on that person then they can click on the link.  Nothing wrong with liking a particular subject either.  All that matters is that the article has accurate, neutral, and properly sourced information.  Hope this helps!  Happy editing!  --JonRidinger (talk) 05:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * A philosophical conundrum: If all articles on Wikipedia could really "stand on their own", could all of Wikipedia stand on one page?  Probably not, unless it was a REALLY BIG page. :-) Leepaxton (talk) 05:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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