Talk:Kepler College

Citations for Positive Criticism
The negative criticism has some references. However, there are none for the apologetic section. The author is requested to cite the sources for the arguments in defence of the college. Also, the apologetics section opening line was recently changed to "In answer to the above, I would ask what better place......." This makes the argument look as if it is one individual person's POV. Quoting from the Wikipedia project page Describing points of view,

At Wikipedia, points of view (POV) are often essential to articles which treat controversial subjects. In    Thought du Jour Harold Geneen has stated: [1]

"The reliability of the person giving you the facts is as important as the facts themselves. Keep in mind that  facts are seldom facts, but what people think are facts, heavily tinged with assumptions."

Hard facts are really rare. What we most commonly encounter are opinions from people (POV's). Inherently, because of this, most articles on Wikipedia are full of POVs. An article which clearly, accurately, and fairly describes all the major points of view will, by definition, be in accordance with Wikipedia's official "Neutral Point of View" policy.

Each POV should be clearly labeled and described, so readers know:

* Who advocates the point of view * What their arguments are (supporting evidence, reasoning, etc.)

So, kindly add the sources for the arguments in defence of the college. Thank you for your effort. Savio mit electronics 00:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Above is now irrelevent since the apologetic section has been removed by A.J.A. Savio mit electronics 01:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I re-posted the argument that A.J.A. removed and added the name of the source to make it clear that it is one person's point of view. However, in this case, the post is not an unsubstantiated POV because the source is the president of the college herself and is the most reliable and valid information on the College available. Gary Lorentzen

OK, the post has been once again removed by A.J.A. So, I reposted again, editing it down a bit, and hopefully removing any sense of 'advertising.'  If this is supposed to be encyclopedic in nature, why is it an 'offense' to describe the history and mission of the college? How is that 'advertising?' I will not give up on this. Kepler has a right to be listed as an authorized college in the State of Washington with a short description of its history and mission. If your prejudice is so strong that it can't allow this, then all of Wikipedia is a sham. You opened the door to opinions under the criticism and controversy header. I have a right to express my opinions as much as John Silber does or as much as you do in quoting John Silber. If there are specific places that you believe 'violate' the rules of Wikipedia, then edit those specific places, why block delete the whole thing? The answer can only be because you're a closed-minded, biased individual who will only allow your own point of view to be expressed. I will not go away. Gary Lorentzen

Reminder
By longstanding consensus, editors with a vested interest in the content of a subject should not edit the article directly, with the possible exception of correcting minor and uncontroversial erres such as spelling. Guy 21:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Clean up
Please clean up your additions: Be aware that wikipedia has a strict policy on presenting anti/psuedo-science NOT as fact. Somone with an MA quoted from the "school's" website will not be presented as an authority that is better than the academic conclusions of astrologies. Historians in that context are used as a strawman, why not mention scientists conclusions of astrology? Arbusto 01:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I see my changes were reverted. In a few days I will clean this up for the undue weight on psuedoscience in this. Example of a serious problem: what does a person with a degree in Botany have to do with being competent to know about astrology? Arbusto 16:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Order of Contents
I have switched the order of the article's two sections, Criticisms/Controversy and Description, placing the former last and vice-versa. The reason: it seemed strange to criticize a subject before describing it. If any critics feel threatened by this, worrying that naive readers will overlook the criticisms and be unduly influenced, you may take comfort in this: critics now get the last word. fuper 04:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Oliver Lodge Quote
Anonymous user 75.24.209.176 has made some recent edits that I feel are not appropriate for this article. Specifically, There are other changes this user made that may or may not be appropriate. If there are no objections, I will revert just the above 3 aspects in a week or two.Agricola44 (talk) 07:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * the edited text now uses weasel words – changing "The choice of name is also somewhat ironic" to "The choice of name has been thought by some as somewhat ironic"
 * the user claims that the quote by Lodge is not sourced, i.e. "correction of claim about the unknown source Oliver Joseph Lodge", however the source (James Newman's The World of Mathematics) is given right down to the specific page number
 * according to the user, Lodge's article in Newman's book says that Kepler was critical of astrologers, not astrology itself – this is patently incorrect; it says quite clearly that Kepler was critical of astrology – just reading the quote demonstrates this. I am not specifically a Kepler scholar, and so I concede there may be other sources that say what 75.24.209.176 claims. This article is not one of these. If such exist, the user should please add these.


 * change made per aboveAgricola44 (talk) 05:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

On the off chance someone still cares. I deleted the introductory sentence: "Kepler had a dim view of astrology." because it is just blatantly not true. Go to the wikipedia article on Kepler with its massive amount of documentation: dude was all about astrology...period. Now, he did engage Roselin in critical debate on the subject but (as that article or any of its references will tell you) Kepler's critical position was on particular astrologers and their particular predictions (particularly the type Roselin made): he did not take a dim view of astrology at large. To think that he did take a dim view (which I doubt is Newman's real point, but I can't know because I don't have access to the cited material)is like saying that because Stephen Hawking has criticized rival physicists and their theories, he must take a dim view of astrophysics.

This article is mostly quotes
I suggest a massive cleanup. Silence from Wikipedians is tacit approval. Yours, --Phleer (talk) 18:32, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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