Talk:Kerala/Archive 2

Images
Does anyone watching this have GFDL or PD-licensed free photos of pookkalam of Onam? If so, please upload them. -- 10:23, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)


 * I hope there are more contributors now. Does anyone have the images? -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Is Image:Pookkalam.JPG what you're looking for? Unfortunately, it doesn't have a tag, but I'm guessing that the uploader (User:Sunithapp) took it himself &mdash; you could always ask him/her to clarify the license status. Saravask 06:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. I've emailed her as she's not edited after her first day here. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Picture of Knanaya temple
It is good to have a picture of valia palli of the knanaya people. However the exterior of this church does not show anything unique to the outsider. The uniqueness of a Syrian Malabar Nasrani palli (temple) is that the holy of holies or tabernacle is separated by a red curtain, just like in a Jewish synagogue. A picture showing the exterior of the knanaya palli does not bring this out. It is very important to have a picture of a nasrani palli showing a red curtain to bring out the ethos of the nasrani temple.

It would be better to replace the exterior picture of the knanaya palli with its former interior picture until we might be fortunate to find a better picture of the valia palli showing the holy of holies separated with a full drawn red curtain. Robin klein 11:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * With all respect, more details crammed into an image ≠ more informative. Images need to be eye-catching, so that readers will be drawn into reading more about the subject. Who will want to read more about that church after looking at some dim and unremarkable image exhibiting a pathological case of horror vacui? If it had been a well-framed and appealingly lit still life image of one of the more important or beautiful relics, then I'd understand. But this? With the ceiling fans, flat backlighting and all? Especially in comparison to this? Your argument could be used regarding any monument with unique interiors (the Salt Lake Temple, Salt Lake Tabernacle, Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Taj Mahal, the Sultan Ahmed Mosque) &mdash; yet why do all the articles on this pages use exterior shots in the lead to visually introduce the subject to readers? Saravask 19:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Saravask I agree with what you say, though my conception for putting up that image was entirely different. However I leave it at that. Robin klein 19:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyway, I put a link to the interior shot in the caption with the label "Click here for an interior shot". I hope that's a good compromise. Saravask 19:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Revised lead/blurb
I needed to make changes to the blurb and lead, including an image change (I wanted to use an image w/ a high height-to-width ratio to maximize the size of the image on the main page; also I think its more eye-catching). If people have problems, let me know or go copyedit the blurb/lead directly. Thanks. Saravask 02:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

 Kerala is a state on the tropical Malabar Coast of South India. Its biodiverse rainforests and Backwaters were first settled around 1,000 BCE by proto-Tamil-speaking Dravidians. Contact with the Mauryan Empire and overseas peoples helped spur an indigenous Keralite culture, including kalarippayattu, kathakali, and Onam. First dominated by the Cheras and Namboothiris, Kerala was later contested by colonial powers and native rulers before gaining statehood in November 1, 1956. Radical social reforms begun in 1911 by the kingdoms of Kochi and Travancore &mdash; and spurred by such leaders as Narayana Guru &mdash; were continued by post-Independence Communist and leftist governments, making Kerala among the Third World's longest-lived, healthiest, and most literate regions. Kerala's 3.1 crore (31 million) people now experience a stable democratic socialist political system and unusually equitable gender relations. (more...)

Nitpicking.
 * Is there any connection between the Kathakali etc and the contact with the outsiders, because that seems to be indirectly implied ?
 * What happened in 1911 ? I did a search for the year in the two sources mentioned within the article but they do not contain that year. Tintin (talk) 14:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed the second point ("1911" -> "19th century"); for the first, feel free to reword the blurb at WP:TFA as much as needed to solve it (I didn't mean to imply that connection). Thanks. Saravask 04:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Image Additions
Kjrajesh has added many nice pics in many sections. Does wikipedia have any guideline for image gallery in articles? I personally feel that image galleries are not needed. I would like to hear other people's view about this. regards --Raghu 16:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Image galleries (like "Trivia" sections) are nonstandard and frowned upon by most serious editors. I agree that we don't need inline galleries to break up the flow of the text. The galleries should either be deleted or condensed and moved to the very end of the article (see Saffron for what I mean) or deleted. Saravask 03:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been bold and removed them. There's already a link to commons, which is sufficient. The pictures are beautiful, nevertheless. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 05:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello Sunder, Yes there is already a link to commons, but pratically, a new user visiting the main page usually do not know abot "wiki commons" and othre things, 95% of the viewes won't read all the details regarding any subject until an unless there is a picture associated with it, its human Psychology . I am not a good web page designer, but if anybody can help to add more images and wordings regading culture, festivel, history, dressing etc on the same page it would be easy for a visitor to immediatly identify what they are looking for. Kjrajesh
 * You're right about good web design, Rajesh. That's why we have relevant images inline. But a gallery is somewhat unencyclopedic. I think Saravask has fixed the issue. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Requests
Can someone go through and convert my American English writing/spelling to Indian English? Also, does anyone know where to find reliable data on the proportion of Keralites living in slums or in poverty ? Thank you. Saravask 06:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * This link gives the relevant information about the slums. --Raghu 06:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I added the slum info. Saravask 02:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

It is highly improper to put up a photograph of a Politician in this one. It deserves to be removed at the earliest.Bharatveer 13:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

More logical chronological topic reording
After much thought, I've reordered the article's topics by chronological order (which is what I did at Saffron): thus, since Kerala's geography and biota are the oldest (hundreds of millions to billions of years since their emergence), I've put them first. Next comes (human) "History" (which is only around 3,000 years old). Next, the districts, (modern) politics, culture, etc in the same order they were before. Will be glad to discuss/answer questions. Saravask 07:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Questions to Saravask
1. Why do you think it is necessary to include reference to Anna lindberg's paper ? 2. Did you read that paper before including it here? 3. Do you think there is anything worth in that paper other than some loaded terms like "effemnization" and "sanskritization?82.178.145.122[ 06:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC) &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bharatveer (talk &bull; contribs) 04:37, 28 February 2006.
 * Here are some answers:

-
 * 1) After Maclean25 pointed me towards four references at User_talk:Saravask during the FAC, I read the papers over and included them, since they include much data on Kerala's marginalized communities. For example, women make up a majority of Kerala's population and face many problems (wage discrimination, physical abuse, etc), yet few of these problems receive adequate coverage here (and these issues are generally under-reported in analogous geography/place featured articles). So I used Lindberg because it provides important general findings on these.
 * 2) Yes, I did read it. I didn't see any problems with it. If you have problems w/ the author, then please take it up w/ Maclean25 &mdash; that user may know more about Lindberg and her research than I do.
 * 3) I don't see how "effeminization" and "sanskritization" are "loaded" (i.e., POV) terms, given that scholars are putting out papers on these issues. These are documented phenomena in India, and this is not the first time I've come across them. Like any other place, Kerala has its problems: slums, poverty, suicide, a stagnant economy, growing disease, etc. Religious fundamentalism (Hindutva or that of whatever other religion) is just another problem, and needs to be mentioned in order to prevent this from becoming a tourist brochure. Hope this helps. Saravask 23:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It didnt help at all.

Every region/ nation will have marginalized community of its own. But my point is that if you think the exclusion of these marginalized communities would make wikipedia articles "tourist brochures", then this principle should be applied uniformly in all the cases. But unfortunately i do not see any mention of marginalized communities in any other similar articles of wikipedia like beijing (Beijing or Paris). Therefore your "tourist brochure" argument is quite hollow.

Saravask, A "tourist brochure" written by a "historian" will not become a "scholarly" work. And I know how these "scholarly" works are being produced in "Oirope" and "Amreeka". So i dont have to say much about it.Bharatveer

two queries
Is it written in BrEng or AmEng? There are a few inconsistencies.

It's rather heavily linked, which is making it a little difficult to read, and looks a little messy on the screen. Although most of the links are useful, a few common words might be delinked. (But I won't do that without your permission.) Tony 11:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * (1) Indian English (almost same as BrEng) (2) Yes, overlinked - please rm links as needed. I started doing this several days ago. (3) Good work so far, but please don't rm the oxford commas though. Saravask 00:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, we'll do the Oxford thing! Tony 00:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

There are inconsistencies with respect to 'iz' and 'is'. I personally prefer the use of the s to be maximised, as BrEng increasingly does. AmEng maximises the use of z. Can someone go through and regularise one or the other? Tony 05:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, use "-is" per InEng sp. All the "iz" cruft is mine; I already posted a request for Indian English speakers to go through and convert them (see Talk:Kerala). Saravask 23:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

PS The use of 'third world' might seem a little judgemental to some readers; with the extraordinary rise of the Indian economy, I'm not sure it has the right meaning any more.Tony 05:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't have an opinion on this &mdash; maybe others do? Saravask 23:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Same goes for 'developed world'—in some respects, India is far more developed than wealthy Western nations. I'd go for 'Western' or some other word. Tony 06:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No opinion &mdash; others are free to comment. As long as the poverty figures, GDP/PPP estimates, etc. are correct, labels shouldn't matter too much. Saravask 23:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "in some respects, India is far more developed than wealthy Western nations." I'm pretty much lol over here on that one, guys.  More to the point, however: Why don't we just use the terminology used by the World Bank or IMF to describe India, which is probably "emerging economy?"  I don't think that most people are going to argue with the fact that India can safely be included with the developing or "third" world, but whatever's good enough for the appropriate international organizations is good enough for me.  Same goes for the developed world (not all developed nations are in the West, after all - Japan, Australia, New Zealand); it's so standard and accepted that it doesn't denote bias. Oldkinderhook 02:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

'Emerging economy' is a much better term. Tony 11:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Red rain
Should the Red rain in Kerala somehow be mentioned in this article? --Khoikhoi 01:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Added. A fascinating read &mdash; good find. Saravask 02:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Btw, the way you phrased it makes it sound like it happens all the time. It only occured in 2001. --Khoikhoi 02:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed &mdash; thanks for the pointer. I'm amazed at how little vandalism this article is receiving so far (compared to most other TFAs). Maybe it's just the subject ... Saravask 02:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You spoke to soon. Lol! --Khoikhoi 02:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Btw notice the vandal got an account called User:Redrains. --Khoikhoi 02:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

“Equitable”
The claim about gender relations is hardly NPOV. Some value system is being embraced here. A less value-laden term (“egalitarian”, if that is indeed what applies) should be used. Gamahucheur 02:52, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to the authors
I just wanted to congratulate the authors of of this article. There a wide variety of information, with something for everyone. The pictures are beautiful too. Veej 03:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I too would like to congratulate the authors. The article is very nicely written with great pictures! Those of you who are helping control this incessant vandalism that keeps ocurring are doing a great job! Maybe we should try to block them since it seems to be the same person over and over again wtih different user names. Keep up the great work! Cheesehead Fan 03:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll third what everyone else is saying! Kudos on the article!  Nicolasdz 21:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Someone knowledgble on these (social movements) please comeup….
Why not someone knowledgeble about the followings which are peculiar to the ‘movements culture’ of Kerala in social fronts. These are something peculiar to Kerala, atlest the efficiency or metriculous nature of its implementation. That makes the differentiations on the indexes. Someone knowledgble on these please comeup…. Pratheepps 12:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * -	Something about the ‘Literecy movement’ Sakshara Keralam; Sundara Keralam (Literate Kerala; Beautiful Kerala)
 * -	and the latest Akshaya program to make the state 100% IT literate.
 * -	So is the title "the world's first baby-friendly state" conferred to Kerala by United Nations Children's Fund (Unicef) and the World Health Organisation (WHO). Achived the milestone by means implementing certain practices (such as avoidance of syntetic foods, mandatory breast feeding etc etc)
 * -	Also about the Panchayat, the grassroot level administrative system.
 * You're always welcome to add the info yourself, as long as you use good sources. Saravask 01:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

What about the Official - Animal, Bird, Flower, Tree...of Kerala


Looks like the main article is too huge (with images) already!!! Pratheepps 13:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Can anybody clear this problem with this site? Or u adminstrators.
Sorry I don't know how to properly format my comments in a discussion section but this article needs to be locked due to vandalism. "penis" and other variations are littered all over the article.

Some darn uncivilized fool has written "penis" all over the page and ruined this beautiful article, I tried to change it but it is too may. Can anybody change it?

How can the admins go a vandalism like this unpunished?

Praise, and question
First off, this is one of the best illustrated featured articles I've seen. The images are vibrant, and both topical and interesting. Kudos to those of you who contributed images. My only concern is that Kerala's literacy rate — 91%[54] — and life expectancy — 73 years[54] is understated as making Kerala among the Third World's longest-lived, healthiest, and most literate regions, their literacy rate is higher than all 50 African countries, and much of Europe. Theiri life expectency puts them higher than about 75% of the world. I think it's a tad perjorative to refer to those two statistics only in terms of the third world Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 22:17, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * We try to be conservative in our descriptions: IMHO, when we say "among the best", we are talking about the top ten regions &mdash; not the top 25%. We don't want accusations of POV aimed here, after all. But an interesting observation nonetheless. Saravask 01:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The state has achieved 100% literacy (99.something) . On April 18, 1991 the state declared ‘complete literacy’. It was declared by the then 65 years old new literate Chelakkodan Aysha, when she read the statement from a piece of paper at Calicut in Kerala.

Over the years the literacy rate has ‘sided’ a bit downward. Many things are attributed. The primary being difficulty with the older generation who became the new literates. They’ve grown older and many of them find it difficult to read and right as compared to those days (due to old age memory problems, lack of dexterity, absence of booster programs for the old etc). Even Aysha herself finds it difficult with letters at the age of 80.

And therefore over the years from 1991 the rate started sliding slowly but stabilized at around about 92% Pratheepps 04:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Spanish Swear Words
I don't know where else to put this, so here it goes;

Someone edited in a long paragraph of spanish swear words in the Geography section. However, when I went to edit it, the paragraph was no where to be found on the editorial page. I'd like to kindly ask the administrators to have this offensive material removed.

Thank you.

Interesting to Note
Not related to the article but did anyone else notice that the day after Kerala was the featured article on English Wikipedia, the United States was the featured article on Malayalam Wikipedia? Interesting eh...somewhat of a tit for tat.

Don't the tigers have a taste for women? I wonder whether there's a gender-neutral term for 'man-eating'. English is becoming more sensitive to gender-specific terms. Tony 01:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Practically speaking, I doubt that many female readers will be offended by the phrase "man-eating". Also, we don't need to prefix such phrases w/ "potentially". Saravask 22:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

"Potentially" and other unnecessary prefixing
"Man-eating" (like sexuality, feeding behavior, motherhood, etc.) are instinct-driven qualities that animals are predisposed to exhibiting regardless of what is or is not around them. The same is true of traits like healthfulness, color, etc. Thus, an unopened bag of carrots would not be described as "potentially healthy" &mdash; they are healthy, regardless of whether anyone is around to eat them. A virgin lab rat that is attracted to the opposite sex but is kept in isolation is not "potentially heterosexual", it is heterosexual (i.e., that is its sexual orientation, irrespective of whether or how many rats of the opposite sex are available for it to mate with). Saravask 22:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Is that what the article meant? I thought it meant that there were many tigers in what would be Kerala that were known to be man-eating.  It doesn't seem to be true that tigers eat people instinctively.  "Man does not feature on the regular diet of a tiger and it is as vary of humans as they are of tigers." from, or try an article at a more adult level, which says that there are over 500 tigers in the Sunderbans but blames all 59 recent human deaths on one or possibly two individuals.  (I don't know what Wikipedia says about this.  Tiger is unavailable for some reason as I write.)


 * If these sources are in error, then "man-eating tiger" is redundant (unlike "malaria-bearing mosquito"), and my edit of "potentially" doesn't solve the problem. In either case I now suggest just "tigers".  Everyone knows why the presence of many tigers would induce people to avoid an area.  &mdash;JerryFriedman 00:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Matrilineal system was widespread
It's really misleading to say only Nairs were matrilineal in Kerala society along with muslims in Malabar(also in Lakshadweep). In fact, majority of the castes were/are matrilineal in Malabar, including Payyannor Namboothiris. In fact, matrilineality is not even unique to Kerala society in South India. Tuluvas were also matrilineal. And terming all Tiyyas as patriarchal is totally wrong as many of them were matrilineal(I suppose even in South Kerala).

Manjunatha (16 Mar 2006)


 * While the idea was alright, the line Many Keralites (especially the Hindus and Muslims of Malabar) follow a traditional matrilineal system known as marumakkatayam.  now gives the impression that all Hindus, or all Hindus of Malabar, practice matrilinear system. Neither is right. I am going to change it to 'some Hindus'. This is will make 'especially' out of place, so I removing that too. If anyone changes this again, please make sure that the old effect does not come back. Tintin (talk) 14:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree 100% with Tintin. Saravask 22:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Probably, sentence should be rephrased or a new section should be added to give the present and past situation. I suppose, matrilineality is mostly dying out. Malabar in the article could be misleading. It should be, many Hindus throughout Kerala practiced matrilineal system. I suppose, historians even talk about matrilineal system in Travancore.

Manjunatha (21 Mar 2006)


 * We did have some discussion on how to phrase this. Can you also take a look at Talk:Kerala/Archive01 Tintin (talk) 04:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay. Probably, article meant only Muslims of Malabar :-).

Manjunatha (21 Mar 2006)


 * Though it may not be obvious, the comma in Many Keralites (some Hindus, and the Muslims of Malabar) was intended to seperate Muslims of Malabar and the Hindus :-) Or should we change it to mention Muslims of Malabar first ? Tintin (talk) 04:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

A note of discontent on Proto-Tamils
I'm not sure of how many of you aware of Tulu people and their culture. Were there no studies dealing with Malayalee-Tulu connection? I'm from Mangalore and for me Tulu, Malayalee cultural connection is striking. Be it matrilineal system, spirit worship(Theyyam in Malabar and Nema in Tulu Nadu).

Probably, because of linguistic studies it's felt that Malayalees were infact Tamils before. However, we have to see that Tulu or Proto-Tulu branches out of South Dravidian language along with Proto-Tamil-Kannada(supposed to Proto-Tamil here). Please find the reference here. In my opinion a big chunk of Malabar Malayalees might have Proto-Tulu origins. Probably, Proto-Tamil origins dominates in South(As far as I know, Theyyam is restricted to Malabar region).

Well, it's bit naive to think Malayalees spoke Tamil before and developed their own language. India's linguistic transitions were always complex. Tamilakam need not to have ruled over only Tamil regions. People, might have adopted Tamil because of that. Don't we know how much Astro-Asiatic and Dravidian languages got replaced elsewhere in India?

Of course, if a linguist proves that Dravidian languages in fact originated in the region of Tamil Nadu, none of my words make any sense. At present, it still has Northeren origins. Kerala might not have been inhabited until neolithic times but that was not the case with Karnataka and Tulu Nadu.

PS: A present genetic study(Sengupta et al.) says Dravidian languages might have their origins in South-West of India and that is again coastal Karnataka, including Tulu Nadu.

Manjunatha (21 Mar 2006)