Talk:Kerala snakebite murder

Copied from User:Rahulsoman talkpage
Rahul, this is a very interesting draft. Although you have made changes, I will help with the English prose. I read all of the sources you have provided in the draft/article.  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  23:06, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
 * My friend, as usual, you are very good at finding new article subjects. I hope you will not mind if I add to your draft. I have made the usual English corrections. But I have also read all of your sources, as well as some others, and I would like to add more information to the article.

Reply

 * Happy to read your edits in the article Tribe of Tiger . You are the person behind the article, you asked about the Mizra snake videos and all, then I just gone through some news and all then it clicked.


 * There are some important statements, regarding her dowry, and also, Sooraj seems to have been "in trouble" before, by doing something dishonest at the bank where he worked. (I seem to remember that the parents of Uthra gave Sooraj money, to get him out of trouble.) If you do not mind, I would like to add this sort of information. Frankly, after reading so many sources, I have the feeling that after Uthra provided Sooraj with a child, he was ready to kill her, so that he could have her dowry gold, and then marry some other young woman, for her "money".

Reply
Another thing, that I read (here on WP, or through a WP source) is that unless a "confession" is made in the presence of a Magistrate or a Judge, it is not admissable in a court of law. This would have the effect of allowing Sooraj to confess to the public media, but he might not be able to be convicted in a court of law, based on that confession. You are an educated person...What do you know about this?  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  00:53, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes you told right, if he says I have not done infront of court then it will become a hard case to prove. But Extra judicial confessions will be having its on importance. I think still its a hard case infront of the police to prove proper. So while our edit here in the page also should be based only on news citations in total neutral view point. Rahul Somantalk - contribs 22:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Once again thanks. I will go through the comments in detail soon later

If you don't mind, I am going to move this conversation to the Draft talkpage. I have some more comments to make, and it occurrs to me that it would be easier it we keep them with the Draft. I will copy our comments, thus far, to the TP. Hope that is okay. Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  03:16, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Add to Draft, Neutrality
Thanks for reminding me about neutral point of view. I now realize that I think that he is guilty, and as a WP editor, this is not neutral. But, as you say, we need to report the facts, as we find them. So, perhaps in a few months, there may be other information. But, for now, we can report on the available newspaper info.

Also, based on your comment on your talkpage, you said: "You must add to it let it get enriched, after knowing about the story it was literally hounding me...." so I think it is okay with you, if I add information about the dowry and Sooraj's financial problems? You can remove it later, if you disagree, or whatever.  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  03:45, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Extra judicial confessions
In the source you provided, dated in 2007, it says:

"''While dealing with a stand of extra-judicial confession, the court has to satisfy that the same was voluntary and without any coercion and undue influence. Where there is material to show animosity, court has to proceed cautiously," the bench said. Extra-judicial confession is admission of guilt not made before a police officer. Since it is not made in judicial custody, such a statement, whether oral or written, is admissible as evidence in a criminal case. Observing that "human mind is not a tape recorder," the court said word by word repetition of the confession by a witness was not required."''

But, the newspaper sources say that Sooraj made a confession in front of the media. So, if this confession was recorded by the media, it would be "tape recorded". Not sure what to think about this, in terms of whether this confession will be admitted in the law courts. Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  03:29, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

New edits and info
Some of what I have added may need to be moved around, but I am trying to be certain that any new text that I add has a source/reference attached to it.  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  23:41, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Saving this source here, looks useful  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  23:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Motive and dowry
My understanding is that this murder is mostly related to the issue of her dowry. Her husband and his family members intended to kill her, so they would have access to her "wealth". I will go through the sources, and try to make a section regarding "dowry murders". I am sure we may be able to find some other supporting sources/references regarding Dowry Murders. Let me know what you think.  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  00:53, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * In india dowry system is already prohibited by Dowry Prohibition Act 1961, but still its there in the society that I have to agree. The case is still going so it will become more complicated if write now, let police give complete evidence about it then it will be easy for us to write, I think you are well updated about the case. This will come under "dowry murders", there is already a WP article on Dowry death, Its really shame to write about such dowry systems. I totally disagree with the system and Its a stupid custom. where the Brides father giving his complete life time earning to Groom. Groom is only looking to the dowry (money) not the bride.Rahul SomanDiscussions - contribs 22:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with you, and we can wait for police and courts to reach a verdict. I have great respect for your opinion that this is a stupid custom. And I think that it is a really awful custom. Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  23:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Also, I have tried to convert the amount of Rupees, Lakh and gold sovereigns to US Dollars. Please tell me, does "RS 10 lakh" equal 1,000,000 (one million) rupees? And, although I cannot put this in the article, could you tell me how many Rupees or Lakh a "basic" new car would cost in India?
 * Hi Tribe of Tiger  Let's Purrfect!  RS 10 lakh is equal to 1356.05 US dollars. Basic car in India we can consider Alto it cost arount Rs. 3-4 lakh, because for marriage nobody will give this much basic car sometimes it will be even better models only. Rahul SomanDiscussions - contribs 22:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information regarding cars, as this is different in each country. Also, I am not good with mathematics, so your educated information is very helpful. Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  23:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

My thoughts are that Uthra's parents are fairly wealthy people, at least from my US perspective. Would people of India think the same thing? Thanks for answering my cultural questions!  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  01:45, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Dont think  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  they are very much wealthy, its problem with the society, that I can say. As I mentioned about the dowry system is legally prohibited in society. But variants of it is still present here. As I mentioned early there are some places where Brides father will give his complete earnings to the Groom and Bride as a gift. So if I discus further its a bit complicated. So let me stop here. Rahul SomanDiscussions - contribs 22:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Because of my problems with converting currency and “sovereigns of gold”, it is very helpful to have your perspective. I think you are saying that they are NOT very wealthy people? This makes the situation much worse. Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  00:54, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Partial reply to above
, thanks for everything you have said, and for providing helpful information. I will write more, but I just wanted to thank you. I will read the link to Dowry death. With respect,  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  23:16, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Additional sources
Adding here for future use incident recreation filmed gold removed from bank locker, March 2 https://www.onmanorama.com/districts/kollam/2020/12/10/uthra-relatives-depose-in-snakebite-murder-case.html Deposition

Updates on the case https://www.onmanorama.com/kerala/top-news/2020/12/03/uthra-snakebite-murder-case-snake-catcher-statement-against-sooraj.html

https://www.onmanorama.com/news/kerala/2020/12/10/uthra-relatives-depose-in-snakebite-murder-case.html

https://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/kerala/doctors-say-uthra-s-snakebite-unnatural-1.5455471

https://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/kerala/snakebite-murder-victim-uthra-s-son-renamed-as-arjav-1.5792212

Two dowry deaths https://www.timesnownews.com/mirror-now/in-focus/article/vismaya-archana-uthara-shocking-stories-of-death-due-to-dowry-harassment-continues/774580

In Kerala snakebite murder court sentenced Murder double life imprisonment
Hi Madam, As you were the major contributor of the page, now kerala court sentenced Murder double life imprisonment.
 * https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/kerala-snakebite-murder-husband-sooraj-sentenced-life-uthra-s-killing-156443
 * https://www.livelaw.in/news-updates/uthra-murder-husband-who-murdered-wife-by-inducing-snake-bite-sentenced-to-life-by-kerala-court-183675?infinitescroll=1
 * https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/kerala-court-gives-double-life-term-to-man-in-snake-bite-murder-case-101634107978271.html
 * https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/sooraj-guilty-sentencing-tomorrow/articleshow/86948192.cms
 * https://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/kerala/uthra-murder-case-age-lack-of-criminal-history-saved-suraj-from-death-penalty-uthra-murder-case-snakebite-murder-1.6085221
 * https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/uthra-murder-case-husband-awarded-life-imprisonment-rs-5-lakh-fine-for-killing-wife-using-cobra/2349064/
 * https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/2021/oct/13/uthra-murder-case-sooraj-awarded-double-life-sentence-for-killing-wife-using-cobra-2371170.html

, here is another good source  an article by the BBC  Tribe of Tiger  Let's Purrfect!  20:11, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

bbc reports it in very detailed way. Rahulsoman (talk) 20:24, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

M.O./forensic journal/pills
Regarding the switch from "M.O." to "modus operandi", I don't want to sound jingoistic, but are we really beholden to non-native English speakers here at En-Wiki? Is there a directive about that? Isn't that what links are for? I'd be a lot more comfortable about the substitution if you could convince me that M.O. is just too informal for an encyclopedia (I have my doubts already). M.O. sounds like a kid informed by TV police shows; it sounds like using "rap sheet" without quotes. But "modus operandi" rings false to me also - too stilted. (I'm not sure what it means, but I did a search term analysis: MO brought up 201,000 hits, M.O. brought up 8,100, and modus operandi brought up 40,500.) Maybe we could come up with a different term altogether? Regarding the sentence about the forensic journal, I put parenthesis around it to give it the tone of an aside, which I feel is proper if we keep the sentence, but when actually thinking about it, it should go. It kind of breaks the fourth wall and doesn't seem encyclopedic. See also won't work because that's for topics that have Wiki pages. How about under Further reading, with a short explanation? Regarding sleeping pills vs. sleep-inducing pills, how did you discover the difference? Nice call. -- Pete Best Beatles (talk) 22:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Pete Best Beatles No, we may not be "beholden to non-native English speakers here at En-Wiki" as you stated, but we are absolutely "beholden" to our readers, which encompasses non-native speakers. I think there is an understanding that as an encyclopedia, we serve to educate...even readers for whom English is a second or third language. And, there are different varieties of English...Nigerian, Indian, as well as UK, US, Australian, etc. EN-WP is the flagship of Wikipedia and highly respected as our largest collection, in any language.
 * Wikilinks are very valuable. IMO, a good writer introduces a new term, with some clarification/ short phrase, then links for further details. Reading an article, when we must constantly flick back and forth, is very tiresome. (This is a general observation, not applicable in this short article.)
 * Yes, indeed, M.O. sounds like someone who has been watching Western (culture) television. The original text read "Lack of similar history...", you introduced M.O. in this edit: []. Sure, the sentence may need editing. But you linked M.O. [] to an disambiguation page, []. The meaning of M.O. is buried, way, way, way down in section #9. []. If you weren't willing to read that far, others may also be discouraged.
 * Frankly, I'm surprised that Modus operandi is an unfamiliar term, given the skilled level of your discourse, and your link to the disambiguation page which defines the term. If you don't like modus operandi, perhaps we could use the original term, which you removed, of "Lack of similar history", or some such.
 * I agree about the journal, and I made a mistake in removing the parenthesis, so I apologize. It does break the fourth wall, but I didn't have time to research and correct. This was my fault, and a good edit by you. Your suggestion of Further reading, with explanation seems the way to go. When the journal coverage is published, it can then be added to the article. Excellent suggestion!
 * Pills. After your change, I consulted the source, which said "sleep-inducing Cetirizine". Cetirizine also known as Zyrtec, has a side effect of drowsiness. An older generation drug, Benadryl was well known for the same effect. Both are available (in the US, at least) without a prescription.
 * Okay, that's it for now, whew!  Tribe of Tiger <sup style="font-family:Segoe print;color:#B22222">Let's Purrfect!  00:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I hope the line between "beholden to" and pulling punches (i.e. dumbing down) doesn't become too thin. (Here's another aside: I'm well acquainted with the phrase "modus operandi"; I said it sounded too stilted, not incomprehensible.) So we've decided to remove "modus operandi" and rephrase, and move the sentence about the forensic journal to a Further reading section, arrived at in a collegial manner. So far so good. However, there's one more problem: "unusual" in the first sentence has to go.  We're supposed to describe, not prescribe. --  Pete Best Beatles (talk) 00:26, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Pete Best Beatles Oh no, no, no, you said in plain English: "But "modus operandi" rings false to me also - too stilted. (I'm not sure what it means, but I did a search term analysis: MO brought up 201,000 hits, M.O. brought up 8,100, and modus operandi brought up 40,500.)"
 * That's what you said. So, I cry total BS on "I'm well acquainted with the phrase "modus operandi". Please be honest, not suddenly aware afterwards. Or, just tell the truth to begin with...one way or the other, it's not a good look, here.


 * Point#1- you introduced the acronym M.O. into the text.
 * Point#2- you wikilinked to a lengthy disambiguation page.
 * Point#3- The page is so long, that the true meaning is in the very last section
 * Point#4- You didn't read this far down, yourself
 * Point#5- When an editor (moi!) substituted modus operandi for M.O., you said you didn't know what it meant, and did a "search term analysis", vs checking the definition.
 * Point#6- M.O. & MO are acronyms or names, or some combination. Please, be sensible. Why do a search term analysis on such "terms"?
 * There it is, "I'm not sure what it means" and you did a search term analysis, even though you admittedly didn't know the meaning. Geez, PBB, come on! You didn't say this term was incomprehensible to readers...after all, as you asked, "Isn't that what links are for?" Yes, you said it sounded stilted, but that's not the same as "I don't know what it means". Which is what you claimed.
 * How could you decide that a term, of which you didn't know the definition, was stilted? Why do a search term analysis? You could have entered the term into WP and been connected to the meaning. Why did you insert M.O. as an acronym, and then wikilink to a lengthy disambiguation page, which served the reader....not at all?? Even you didn't read the page! You are the editor who introduced M.O. into the article, despite being unaware of the meaning.
 * Yes, I agree to some point, the line between a native English speaker like me, "pulling punches by "dumbing down" towards you by stating the use of the common Latin phrase, Modus operandi, may be a thin line. If so, I apologize for insulting you in this manner. In which case, I provide you with Mea culpa, another common Latin phrase. Yup, I'm a very old person.
 * I have removed the word "unusual" from the lede. It was introduced by a non-native English writer, obviously bad form, and a good call on your part, I do mean that sincerely, you were correct on this point.  Tribe of Tiger <sup style="font-family:Segoe print;color:#B22222">Let's Purrfect!  08:32, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * "I'm not sure what it means" was referring to the results of the search term analysis! (I meant we couldn't draw any hard conclusions from the search since there was no time frame, and I understood we couldn't really know what people were thinking of when they punched in MO, but I did it anyway for "shits and giggles".) I did a rudimentary analysis to see if people were more apt to think of/use M.O.or modus operandi, I thought it might be an interesting fact to consider in our discussion over the terms, and thought a little quantification might be apt (I see the Big Boys use search term analysis when trying to reach consensus on issues). When I used "dumbing down" it had nothing to do with you and me, I meant Wikipedia article language in general! --  Pete Best Beatles (talk) 15:03, 27 July 2022 (UTC)