Talk:Kerner's breakdown minimization principle

Has this theory been used in any actual modelling? Can we have some examples or is just a theory? Ephebi (talk) 15:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Theory and modeling of breakdown minimization principle has been done in [1]. You can also find there ([1]) a detailed modeling of comparison between BM principle and Wardrop’s user equilibrium (UE) and system optimum (SO) principles. Some of BM principle modeling results are shown figure 4.TheBigElmo (talk) 12:58, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but ref 1 appears to be purely theoretical, and the figures are idealised graphs, by their appearance. Are there examples of actual places with transport networks which have used this principle for real schemes that can be cited? or a commercial software product which incorporates the principles which has been used on real world schemes? Or is this purely an academic theory? Cheers, Ephebi (talk) 12:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * At this time, the BM principle is a theory only. Wadrop’s principles introduced in 1952 have been incorporated in several commercial software tools. However, there is up to now no proof that simulations of dynamic traffic assignment in traffic networks, which are based on these software tools, are adequate with empirical (measured) traffic data in the related networks (see discussion in the review [13]). Moreover, as shown in the works by Davis [11, 12] there are some fundamental reasons why Wadrop’sequilibrium cannot be reached for real traffic networks at a large enough traffic demand. As I believe, this emphasizes the importance of Kerner’s BM principle as an alternative principle for the traffic network optimization. I believe in this theory and I hope that the Wikipedia article about the BM principle is important for the development of future algorithms of the optimization and control of traffic networks that can be adequate with reality. TheBigElmo (talk) 11:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your well-considered reply. I agree that the development of models in congested networks has long been a challenge, though there are more models in use than just Wardrop's.  But in my real-world experience this was mainly dealt with by using empirical calibration, and any problems there were overwhelmed by challenges in developing good enough O-D demands to validate a 30-year forecast for benefit analysis. In WP there are no equivalently-detailed articles describing the mainstream Wardrop equations. But a few years ago I noticed Kerner-related articles appearing promising a panacea, but were being added as WP:PROMO or WP:VANISPAM. Remember that WP is an encyclopaedia and is not here to promote minority views or outlying theories. So while it may be an appealing theory which may have scope for future development, we need to be careful that that WP:DUE applies on this page for what seems to be an untested theory.  Ephebi (talk) 08:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Many thanks. I agree with you that there are no article in WP about Wardrop’s equations and their applications. I believe that such WP article should be written. However, I cannot agree that WP:PROMO or WP:VANISPAM or else WP:DUE applies on this page. This is because at time as I know the BM principle as the only one that satisfies the set of the fundamental empirical (measured) features of traffic breakdown. These features discussed in the WP article under consideration are not “minority views or outlying theories”: They are well-known for anyone who works in the field. Your remark “there were overwhelmed by challenges in developing good enough O-D demands to validate a 30-year forecast for benefit analysis” is correct. However, this fact about O-D validation has no relation to the fact that earlier traffic and transportation models (not only Wardrop’s principles) cannot show and explain the set of the empirical features of traffic breakdown. The set of these empirical features of traffic breakdown formulated in this article is the empirical basis of the BM principle. With the exception of this WP article, I know no other WP articles in which these well-known fundamental empirical features of traffic breakdown have been formulated and applied for the validation of traffic models and theories. TheBigElmo (talk) 13:02, 10 January 2013 (UTC)