Talk:Kesen dialect

Constructed
This "language" should be listed as a constructed language. Azalea pomp (talk) 21:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, i'm not sure that it should be classified as constructed. I know very little about the Japanese language, and nothing about its dialects, but if it's just a codification of a dialect, then i don't think that it is a constructed language.
 * What looks strange, though, is that that Harutsugu Yamaura guy proposed a modified writing, and that nobody except himself uses it. This makes it look a lot like İQTElif, IPA2 and Siberian (a weird project in which i naively took a part at some stage.)
 * Looks like all the sources here are by Harutsugu Yamaura. It would be nice if anyone with knowledge of Japanese could check it. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think this language is not a constructed language. Harutsugu Yamaura followed and refered the past studies of Kikusaburo Kon'no (金野菊三郎), a linguist and a local historian. Harutsugu Yamaura only decided how to romanize. --60.33.33.48 (talk) 14:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Number of speakers
There's a contradiction here - who counted this number of speakers? Do those "74,000" speakers know that they speak "Kesen language" or is it just a statement by Yamaura Harutsugu that nobody else verified? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Amir, a contradiction is when someone says A and ~A. You are only claiming that someone said A, but A is unverifiable. That's not a contradiction, it's WP:V. Sai Emrys   ¿?   ✍  21:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Notability and Original research discussion
Copying from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan

Can anyone please check the article Kesen language?

All the sources there are based on publications by one author without any peer review, which is quite problematic for articles about dialects. Maybe somebody who knows Japanese can assess it better. I saw that the article exists in Japanese and Korean Wikipedias, and there has been discussions about it there, but there was almost zero discussion here in en.wiki. Any help would be appreciated. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Unless I'm missing something here, this seems like a bunch of garbage to me ... some guy doesn't like the fact that his way of speaking is labeled a dialect, so he calls it a language and this becomes newsworthy? He's not even a linguist.  I don't like the idea of Wikipedia perpetuating original research ... just because some nut publishes a book, that doesn't make it legitimate.  If there was already an article on the Kesen dialect, I'd suggest merging a little bit of the content as a kind of footnote ... but no such article exists.  I'm not sure if it should be deleted though, it does have ~6000 Google hits.  Maybe moving this article to Kesen dialect would be the best solution? CES (talk) 15:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * As i said above, at first it seemed to me a lot like İQTElif, IPA2 and Siberian - a bunch of original research articles, all of which are now deleted. The problem is that i have some minimal understanding in the languages related to those deleted articles (Tatar, Persian, Russian respectively), so i could make up my mind about them myself, but Japanese is totally foreign to me.
 * I almost nominated this article for AfD, but then i saw the two websites that are listed at the "External links" section. I can't understand a single word there, but the photographs appear rather respectable, so i thought that i'll ask someone who knows Japanese for a more educated opinion. Besides, there are corresponding articles in Japanese and Korean, and there was some discussion about them at their respective talk pages.
 * If there are sources that show that these books were at least reviewed by some third party, then i guess that this articles can stay, and i don't personally care whether it is called a "language" or a "dialect". But if this just a codification of a dialect that is used by nobody else except the author of those books, then this article should be deleted and not renamed, and similar steps should be taken in the Japanese and Korean Wikipedias, too.
 * Thanks for any help! --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The two websites are a bio of Yamaura and a page about the out-of-print Kesen dictionary published by Yamaura. All the "further reading" is by Yamaura.  I see no evidence that this is not just the work of one guy trying to legitimize his dialect of Japanese as a distinct language. CES (talk) 02:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If it's out of print, does it mean that a lot of people bought the first edition? If it is so, then i'd say that this makes the language notable. It also means that it must have been reviewed somewhere. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Unless enough third party reliable sources can be found to support a full article, I recommend trimming and merging this into Japanese language. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe Japanese dialects is more appropriate? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that would be a better location. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. CES (talk) 12:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

This looks powerfully silly. We read (after link-stripping):


 * Kesen (Kesen: ケセン語, Keseng̃ó; Japanese: ケセン語; Kesengo）is a self-declared independent language in Japan. Virtually identical to the Japanese Kesen dialect, Kesen was developed by local language activist and medical doctor Harutsugu Yamaura (山浦玄嗣, Yamaura Harutsugu?), who provided the language's orthography, dictionary, grammar, and pronunciation rules.

First, I don't know what a "self-declared independent language" is. It might mean a language declared independent by its speakers, but (putting aside the question of what "independence" might mean here), the article suggests that it's so declared by just one person. Secondly, it's not clear what this is if it's neither a plaything (cf Klingon) or a natural language; if it's a plaything, it's not worth our time; if it's a natural language, it's not clear how it could have been "developed" from or parallel to a "virtually identical" dialect by a "language activist" or any other single person.

It's also nonsensical to say that any one person provided a language with its grammar or rules of grammar, unless of course you mean the kind of pseudo-grammar typified by schoolmarms' rules against the "split infinitives" of English. But perhaps this means a grammar book.

The article makes me think less of grammar books, more of grimoires. Just a big hoax? I suggest zapping the article if it's not mentioned in Shibatani's Languages of Japan (a copy of which I unfortunately don't have at hand). -- Hoary (talk) 15:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's more or less my point, although not knowing any Japanese, i wouldn't rush to call it "silly" and "a hoax". But the "one man" thing, which the article doesn't try to deny in any way, is indeed a major problem.
 * As i said above, the images of the printed books at the linked websites look rather respectable, but it can just as well be vanity press. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

As far as I understand, "Kesen language" is an "one man" works (or an original research, if you want) by Yamaura. He provided the orthography, the written grammar(-books), and the dictionary for the dialect. Kesen dialect itself existed for a long time and still does, while his Kesen language (as a written language) is hardly used. In that sense, I personally do not think there are fundamental differences between Kesen language and İQTElif or IPA2. But something to note may be the largely positive responses by the local media/authorities. His works were reported by Asahi Shimbun, Yomiuri Shimbun , or NHK (according to the Japanese article). His books won the Iwate Art Award (岩手県芸術選賞) by the Prefectural Government, and the Iwate Nippo Culture Award (岩手日報文化賞).  Yamaura also dedicated the books (Bible) to Vatican and was blessed by the Pope. 

Putting aside Vatican who may or may not know much about the language, Japanese media basically treated his "language" as a "dialect". (Naturally, because it is a dialect.) However, they praised his works as a good study of the dialect; in Japan, few, if any, dialects were studied thoroughly like Kesen (or so the Kahoku Shimpo says ). I guess this is the point the Japanese Wikipedia article saw the notability. Kzaral (talk) 19:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for the reply!
 * I can't read Japanese (how many times have i already said it here?..), but i'll trust you. If notable publications reviewed these works in a non-trivial manner and even "praised his works as a good study of the dialect", then it's definitely notable.
 * Can you please add these sources to the article with proper titles? After that feel free to remove the tags at the top. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

dialect or language?
Harutsugu Yamaura wrote and introduced the tongue spoken by inhabitants of Kesen District as Kesen Language in this linguistics journal with authority.

I think that this article should be written as a language..--Damena (talk) 03:31, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Please read the above discussion. As it is, the article still essentially treats it as a language despite the move. CES (talk) 16:03, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Dead external links
According to WP:ELDEAD, "Links to dead URLs in a list of external links are of no use to Wikipedia articles. Such dead links should either be updated or removed."

There is an archived version of Yamaura's E-Pix page here in the Internet Archive. However, that page was mainly for selling Yamaura's self-published books. I'm removing the link. I'm noting the archive, though, in case someone wants to add it. Cnilep (talk) 02:22, 18 February 2016 (UTC)