Talk:Kesgrave Hall

Kesgrave Hall School and Shawe Manor
Given that all but the last 4 lines of this section are about the time the school was known as Kesgrave Hall School, I am proposing to move the last four lines into a new section called "Shawe Manor (1993), and rename the current section "Kesgrave Hall School (1976 - 1993)"

After Shawe Manor
I am also proposing to split this section into two, the first called "KDM (1995-2004)" and the second "Ryes School (2004-2007)"

Kesgrave Hall as a Milsoms hotel
And to be consistent with the above to change the title of this section to "Kesgrave Hall as a Milsoms hotel (2007-present)"

Does anyone have any more information on the 2004-7 Ryes School time ?

Does any one have any objections or comments. - Mrodgers2099 (talk) 08:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

With no objections received, I have made the edits as well as turning the information about St. Edmund's School and WWII into sections of there own.

I think the following sections need more work on :

Second World War (1939 - 1945) - I have done some looking on the internet, but if anyone, particularly from the area has any information please add it.

Shawe Manor (1993) - the current information is little more than a place holder.

Ryes School (2004 - 2007) - Like the information for Shawe Manor, this could do with filling out.

Mrodgers2099 (talk) 16:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Kesgrave Hall School (1976 - 1993)
I am proposing that this section should be split off into a page of it's own (following the WP:SPLIT guide) even thought the length of the page is not long I think it should be split for the following :

1). This page, should, given it's title, be about the building and it's uses. Most visitors to the page are probably after information about the current use as a Hotel/Restaurant. Most of the current page deals with the time as Kesgrave Hall School.

2). A Kesgrave Hall School page could make use of school related templates, that this page can not.

Any comments ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrodgers2099 (talk • contribs) 14:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't object in principle, but the Shawe Manor section will have to be split off as well as they were the same school run on the same principles with the same pupils and staff (albeit a different management). Also, KHS was one of several schools in the building's history which lasted only 17 years, and in its entire history it had fewer pupils than many schools have in one year. --IndigoJo (talk) 18:44, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that the section on Shawe Manor should be merged back with the section on Kesgrave Hall School? If so I see why you might think that, but disagree. It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong as I was not at the school then, and am going on only what I was from staff at the time relayed 2 or 3 years later) was that Shawe Manor School was a totality separate legal entity, run by different management, all be it renting / leasing the property from the original owner and, as far as the staff were concerned they were working for a new company, transferred under TUPE. If this is what happened then the two schools were and are separate.

Or are you saying that Shawe Manor should also have it's own page ?

The main reason for proposing the split was so that the page could make use of and

Mrodgers2099 (talk) 19:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes I am saying that they should be re-merged if they are to become a separate page. Quite apart from the fact that the new owners only leased, rather than bought, the school from the original owners (possibly meaning that after three years, it would have reverted to being KHS or at least reverted to the old ownership), the school was de facto, even if not de jure, the same thing as Kesgrave Hall School as the same people were involved; the same headmaster and most of the same staff and pupils and it was run on the same principles. If Shawe Manor had lasted for years afterwards, it might deserve its own section or its own page, but from a KHS point of view it was just the last chapter in the whole sorry KHS story and according to my sources, a lot of blame lies with the KHS management as the same group had tried taking over other schools (e.g. Red Hill in Kent) but had been rebuffed. Shawe Manor is inseparable from KHS. --IndigoJo (talk) 10:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I still disagree with merging the sections back as, as you concede they are 'legally' different schools (all be it closely linked), however your point of view is not totally without merit, and a good compromise would be to split off the section on Kesgrave Hall School, and to replace the paragraph The school closed in 1993, at a time when a number of similar establishments in the UK were closing. at the end something along the lines of (apologies for plagiarising your wording) :

'The school closed in 1993, at a time when a number of similar establishments in the UK were closing. However a new school called "Shawe Manor" opened almost immediately afterwards run by different owners, the headmaster and most of the staff and pupils transferred to the new school.'

The reference to Shawe Manor, could, initially be a link back to an on the Kesgrave Hall page or to its own page making use of  and.

As an aside, nothing should be read into the fact that Shawe Manor only leased the building, as it is my understanding the same is true of Kesgrave Hall School. The building was owned by Viv Davis (who also owned Kesgrave Hall School Limited) and Kesgrave Hall School Limited paid rent on the building to Viv Davis. It is also my understanding that owners of Shawe Manor purchased the contents (equipment) of Kesgrave Hall School from Kesgrave Hall School Limited and continued to lease the building from Viv Davis. When Shawe Manor went bust the assets of Shawe Manor were sold at auction to pay off the creditors, the biggest being, one would suspect, Viv Davis for the rent. Mrodgers2099 (talk) 11:51, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I have now moved the section on Kesgrave Hall School to it's own page. Following IndigoJo's comments I have made it clear both on the new page and on this one the close links between KHS and Shawe Manor. Mrodgers2099 (talk) 19:53, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Page move protection
I have move protected the page following an undiscussed move to Milsoms at Kesgrave Hall. The article is about the Hall and its history not its current use. The Hall is notable but the hotel is not. If an editor wishes to move the page please discuss it here. TerriersFan (talk) 17:55, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

References to Keswick
I take it the several references to 'Keswick' are just typos and need correcting to 'Kesgrave'? Timbow001 (talk) 11:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)