Talk:Ketchup/Archive 2

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2017
Please remove "Ketchup has moderate health benefits.[41] Ketchup is a source of lycopene, an antioxidant which may help prevent some forms of cancer. This is particularly true of the organic brands of ketchup, which have three times as much lycopene.[42] Ketchup, much like marinara sauce and other cooked tomato foods, yields higher levels of lycopene per serving because cooking increases lycopene bioavailability.[citation needed]."

Lycopene was throughly rejected for labeling claims by the FDA in 2005 based on studies and the data. There is absolutely no hard evidence for lycopene's supposed "anti-cancer" properties. This language should be removed to be consistent with the lycopene page because the tomato and vitamin lobbies keep promoting this debunked and deceptive mythology.

Thanks for curating Wikipedia. 2600:1010:B06F:88BE:BD0D:A3D5:2344:33FD (talk) 00:09, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. Yes, good catch. Altamel (talk) 19:35, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Composition
This section needs a revise. We aren't modeling all ketchup after Heinz on this page, which uses about 21% tomatoes in its recipe source for more corn syrup. If you notice when reading the Heinz label, high fructose corn syrup and corn syrup are broken down into two separate ingredients. Combine the both and it has a higher concentration than tomatoes. source This breaks neutrality and can be viewed as advertising for Heinz. We need to obtain, the most common recipe used to fill this void. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:36, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Terminology - Ireland
"Red sauce is the term used in Welsh English, Scottish English and some parts of England, such as the Black Country, and in South London, contrasting with brown sauce. In Canadian and American English, "red sauce" refers to various tomato-based sauces commonly paired with pasta dishes, and is not a synonym for ketchup."

The term "red sauce" is also used in Hiberno-English (English in Ireland). The official term used is "ketchup", but if in a restaurant (etc), one would usually ask for "red sauce". TatuJoey (talk) 19:34, 21 July 2017 (UTC) TatuJoey (talk) 19:34, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

US-centric
This article is highly US-centric. Why is the third paragraph in the article talking about what the market leader in the US is? That is not very relevant to a global audience. Heinz is certainly not the only Ketchup manufacturer worldwide, this article reads like an advert now.

Several other parts of the text discuss US regulations and customs instead of giving a balanced view. (unsigned comment added by 146.247.165.115)


 * Ketchup is from America. America is a huge market for it, and probably eats more ketchup than the rest of the world combined. Whoever wrote those parts was working with the information they had, which dealt with ketchup in the US. If you think it ought to have more detail about ketchup market shares globally, and laws pertaining to ketchup in other countries, feel free to add them. But it's not reasonable to expect someone that has some information (i.e. regarding ketchup in America) to not post it to wikipedia unless they double their research and come up with the equivalent data on a global scale, to avoid to appearance of favoring the US. It's also not reasonable to delete said information in the absence of other info. If the global market share of ketchup makers can be discovered and cited, have at it. If not, you'll probably find that whoever has the biggest market share in the US has the biggest market share globally, due to the America market being so vast (and the fact that any company big enough to dominate the US ketchup market probably also has spread overseas, and quite likely is the largest market share in those nations too....especially for something like tomato ketchup which probably only sells in most of these places because of the effort this American company put into exporting it there and promoting it. AnnaGoFast (talk) 02:30, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * No-one deleted anything, so I have no idea what you're on about. Your supposition that the USA "eats more ketchup than the rest of the world combined" is pure guesswork. The IP simply made a suggestion as to how to improve the article. Pinkbeast (talk) 04:48, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Picture
I don't think that the picture should have the ketchup in a smiley-face like it does. That misrepresents the fundamental shape of ketchup, as it rarely naturally takes the form of a smiley. It should just be the wavy crest that is most familiar to people. BenJenkins (talk) 02:11, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
 * We have a bunch of images on Commons, at commons:Category:Ketchup and subcats of that. Do any of them suffice? Or could you make something with ketchup on it (plate, hot dog or hamburger, whatever you think is best), take a high-quality photograph of it yourself, and upload it? DMacks (talk) 02:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Ketchup Market: ConAgra Foods, HUL, Del Monte Foods, Annie’s Homegrown, Bolton Group, Nestle India, Kraft Heinz, and Campbell Soup Company

Don't be so daft. This encyclopaedia is already far too stuffy & stilted, a bit of appropriately placed humour is just what it needs.

Ketchup vs. tomato sauce?
There seems to be a bit of an internal discrepancy here. The opening paragraph states that 'Tomato sauce is the the more common term in the UK', yet the 'Terminology' section - correctly, I think - tells us that 'Ketchup is the dominant term in British English'. Might it be possible for someone to clear this up, and preferably add a source as proof? 2A02:C7D:5054:FE00:DDCD:F084:D3C:71BD (talk) 16:10, 14 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Could someone change the instances where Ketchup is equated to "Tomato Sauce" in Australia? Tomato sauce doesn't contain vinegar and has less sugar than Ketchup, and the two can easily be told apart in a blind A/B test. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8000:1434:E00:3D1D:E9E6:C59A:9C29 (talk) 02:12, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * For the record, tomato sauce is ketchup and I have found no evidence to support otherwise and have orchestrated the speedy deletion of recently 2-month old former article to date, tomato sauce (condiment). In fact, I have found quite the opposite and in agreement that it is merely another term used exclusively in Australia and other commonwealth territories (as football is to soccer) for what Americans consider ketchup. Furthermore, the article lacked sources, in which I could not verify. Said source used (and only source, if we can call it one) lists basic "ketchup" ingredients, but instead of the word vinegar (which was arguing that tomato sauce supposedly doesn't have), it lists "food acid (Acetic)", which is "acetic acid" and is its equivalence--vinegar! Source also mentions it is great for "meat pies", "hot fries" (french fries), "hotdogs", and "hamburgers" --used on the same foods as ketchup. (just saying)


 * Another argument made by (as I can find no other editor to argue for of record) mentions that less salt and more sugar is what makes ketchup different. (no evidence to support this claim) In defense, less sugar may be true, but former article's source listed sugar a spot ahead of salt. In fact, I found that Australia now uses the same amount of sugar as American ketchup, which both started out not using sugar at all. Australia's tomato sauce slowly followed suit in the late 19th century, initially in small quantities. Differences only lie in the proportions of tomatoes, salt and vinegar used.(Santich, Barbara)


 * Besides, sauces are known for lessening sodium and sugars vice-versa but it doesn't change what the sauce is and its intended purposes. For example, HP Sauce, a brown sauce maker, recently altered its original recipe after 116 years (from date of the article I am about to render). Main discussion was the fact that it would use less salt which in term makes the sauce more sweet rather than savory for health reasons. Is it still brown sauce? (source) --arguably yes. So the fact that proportions of salt to sugar can differ, doesn't constitute these condiments (or "table sauces") to be mutually exclusive from one another. We've all seen the "low sodium" campaign surrounding condiments of today for supposed health benefits. (source)


 * Sources found that dispute and agree that sauces are the same and simply different names are used (a la football-soccer rationale):
 * TOMATOES, from Garden to Table: The Complete Guide (Dashiell, Lee) "Tomato ketchup (called tomato sauce in Australia)"
 * The Appetizer Atlas: A World of Small Bites (Meyer, Arthur L.; Vannv Jon M.) "...what Australians call tomato sauce (ketchup to Americans)"
 * Pop's Mops and Sops - Barbecue and Sauces from Around the World (Quester, "B" "B") "...ketchup tomato sauce" --then follows in the next paragraph mentioning how "tomato sauce" (without the word "ketchup"), goes great with meat pies. Less of a worthy source, but will still mention:
 * Homemade ketchup (Tomato sauce)


 * My exact phrase while searching was not biased; exact phrase "tomato sauce table recipe Australia".


 * Archived talk points regarding both terms (pinging involved editors):
 * @, suggested a possible second article when said "maybe a "Tomato sauce (condiment)" article is needed..." --argued, "the word "similar" is not equal to the word "same". --though the same ingredients are used possibly in different proportions.
 * @, who argued that "cinnamon" was an ingredient in ketchup in Australia and were therefore not the same. --again proportions, seasoning and spices may vary.
 * @ argued that the absence of vinegar was what made them different from one another. --however, the use of acetic acid (a vinegar) states otherwise in said source. Proportioned less, to make it less tangy, a possibility but not enough to determine exclusiveness. They do that with barbecue sauce all the time.


 * All of what was mentioned above is currently hearsay, as no sources were rendered. Savvyjack23 (talk) 06:50, 17 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Australians have long equated Australian tomato sauce with the American ketchup. However, both are now sold in AUS and US companies have maintained the "ketchup" labeling. The one difference between both of them, is that the US product generally tends to taste a bit spicier, a subtle difference for what is the same thing. source Savvyjack23 (talk) 07:13, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The US ingredients for Heinz Ketchup feature Onion Powder, which is missing from the Australia ingredients for the same product. This is enough to cause people sensitive to onion to taste the difference, however this would only be on *IMPORTED* ketchup.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8000:1434:E00:858A:A5DB:C02E:D017 (talk) 02:44, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2019
replace "sauce" with "dressing" 128.235.159.0 (talk) 20:58, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 21:08, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Viscosity section self-contradictory
The Viscosity section of the article starts out by saying that the addition of xanthan gum gives ketchup its pseudoplasticity, but then proceeds to describe the pseudoplasticity as being due to polysaccharides, such as pectin. Given that xanthan gum is cited in the next section (Separation) as a hydrocolloid, not a polysaccharide, it would seem that the pseudoplasticity is likely NOT due to xanthan gum. Would somebody like to attempt a rewrite that doesn't contradict itself? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Corydon76 (talk • contribs) 18:28, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Oddly specific / out of place sentences
In the Composition section: "Salt is the next ingredient listed and is composed of sodium and chloride ions." I thought the paragraph was getting a bit ridiculous before this, but at this point why not go on to explain that sodium is composed of electrons, protons, and neutrons, and that those subatomic particles are further composed of... etc. If every article decomposed everything already covered by other topics to this level they'd be impossible to read due to sheer size and would mostly consist of copy-pasted descriptions of particle / wave behavior in quantum physics. Same goes for listing the biochemicals in a tomato. Why stop there? You could easily add 400 or so pages to the article by describing every component of a tomato as well as a genetic sequence. The entire paragraph could be one sentence, really.

In the also overly long non-newtonian fluid explanation: "A way for ketchup manufacturing companies to avoid leaching of their products would be to add a hydrocolloid." Why is this here? I could just as easily say that a way for ketchup manufacturing companies to sell bottles of ketchup for $1000 would be to add a touchscreen, GPS and cellular antennas, a SIM slot, and a lithium-polymer battery to the bottles. And remove the food-based ingredients. If there is a hydrocolloid being added it might be better to state that, otherwise why randomly speculate about ways companies could theoretically change their products? I see someone else already mentioned the xanthan gum thing, I can't tell whether the sentence I quoted is even supposed to be related to that or not.

--A Shortfall Of Gravitas (talk) 04:34, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Section on viscosity additives
There aren’t citations and it seems a US-centric blanket statement - Heinz in the UK has no additives for example --O0factuallycorrect0o (talk) 13:30, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

What is the difference between a sauce and a codiment?
The leading sentence claims ketchup is a sauce used as a condiment (as far as I can see this claim is not verified by any sources). What is the difference? Sounds like someone's personal opinion to me tbh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C0:713:B300:DCAE:C7A6:2C2E:281A (talk) 10:26, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Viscosity and Separation Removal?
Do we really need these sections? Mayo and mustard don't have those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.10.226.170 (talk) 17:35, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Heinz advertising
As well as I like and prefer that brand over others, I don't think it should be promoted as early as in the second phrase of the introduction, in addition to the pictures. &mdash; MFH:Talk 12:35, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Amygmain.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:44, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Boomshakalakaja.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

The origin of ketchup is actually from China, I was surprised the article didn’t mention that the British brought it over from there.
Edit the page lol 204.131.88.94 (talk) 02:09, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reference to a reliable source that verifies your claim? Cullen328 (talk) 02:14, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2023
It says tomato sauce is common outside north America not true, in England and Ireland ketchup is the default term. This gives a false impression and is a US centric view. 120.18.104.160 (talk) 13:22, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ – The statement you contested had this sauce source, but it's claim that tomato sauce is only vaugly implies that "ketchup" isn't used outside of the US. Furthermore, the source was self-published with xlibris. small jars  17:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Tomato Sauce vs Ketchup?
Everyone knows that American Ketchup, tastes nothing like Tomato Sauce from other countries. Ketchup is a mix of sugar and possibly some tomato-flavoured water and corn-flour thickener. Why does Tomato Sauce link to this page, when the two are not even remotely similar? ZL3XD (talk) 08:49, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * In most English speaking countries “tomato sauce” when used refers to the same condiment as Ketchup. There’s no issue here, imho. 2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:CD9F:DBF1:3CA4:8A72 (talk) 14:02, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * https://www.google.com/search?q=tomato+sauce+vs+ketchup+australia&rlz=1C1RXQR_en-GBAU1000AU1000&oq=tomato+sauce+vs&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0i512l9.6099j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8  They're not the same thing in Australia, they're two different products with different recipes.  https://www.steric.com.au/news/the-difference-between-tomato-ketchup-and-tomato-sauce/#:~:text=In%20the%20Australian%20market%20there,more%20sour%20and%20more%20runny.
 * https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/whats-the-difference-between-tomato-sauce-and-ketchup/news-story/7f2bffc6826ce6aedc06674ecbf93b14 118.209.201.240 (talk) 09:12, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I second this but can this be explained under ‘Terminology’? It weirdly states that American and Canadian English don’t use ‘tomato sauce’ this way but don’t clarify that the UK and many Commonwealth countries do 2603:7000:2F02:5E65:801B:FD12:9846:11E8 (talk) 03:56, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Edit protected
Please add to the #Terminology section after

In parts of Canada, ketchup is sometimes referred to as chow-chow.

-- 67.70.25.80 (talk) 07:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: just because someone described the relish chow-chow as Ketchup doesn't mean that part of the Canadians do. M.Bitton (talk) 13:03, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * This guy refers to it a "chunky ketchup" and not relish. While it is fruit ketchup  and Quebec ketchup
 * You can buy it commercially bottled in stores as "ketchup"
 * So chunky ketchup is chow-chow, and chow-chow is ketchup. -- 67.70.25.80 (talk) 22:45, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: You're going to want to take a look at WP:RS. User submitted recipes to food.com are not reliable sources, neither are grocery store listings. Also, "chow chow ketchup" seems to be chow chow flavored ketchup, similar to how jalapeno ketchup is jalapeno flavored ketchup. Cannolis (talk) 23:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Untitled
What happened to the picture of the sauce with the face in it? That was dead good, that. Bring back the face! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SquidSix (talk • contribs) 00:29, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Terminology citation does not support statement
> The term used for the sauce varies. Ketchup is the dominant term in American English and Canadian English, although catsup is commonly used in some southern US states and Mexico.

Source does not indicate that “catsup” is used commonly anywhere Jakeaglass (talk) 00:44, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * In the 1950s, the United States' product produced by Libby's was called "Tomato Catchup," and the product in Europe currently produced by Libby's is also still called 'Catchup'. The article should include this alternate spelling.
 * 172.250.237.36 (talk) 10:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Link here as a reference:
 * https://www.atticpaper.com/proddetail.php?prod=1928-libbys-catchup-ad
 * 172.250.237.36 (talk) 10:45, 1 September 2023 (UTC)