Talk:Kevin G. Welner

Proposed Changes 21 May 2018
I am requesting changes made to the page of Kevin G. Welner. I have never requested an edit before, so please forgive me if I am going about this incorrectly. Please see suggested changes located in my sandbox at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matg1513/sandbox.

Rationale for proposed changes:
 * The page as current page for Kevin G. Welner contains outdated sources
 * The page as current page for Kevin G. Welner does not use encyclopedic tone, and reads like professional bio.
 * The content in current page for Kevin G. Welner does not discuss this living person's career
 * This living person's life is more complex than the current article (I forgot to end this part of the statement so I am made a minor edit here to fix it.Matg1513 (talk) 23:15, 21 May 2018 (UTC))

Notes about proposed changes:
 * The proposed changes do not apply to the infobox, but they may help the infobox for this person to become more complete
 * The proposed begin with a descriptive lead.
 * The proposed changes contain sections in-style with similar academic BLPs
 * I over-cited in places where I was unsure if a citation was needed, such as the Books section

I believe the proposed changes are uncontroversial, specific, necessary and, most of all, sensible. If there are changes to tone, style, or language please let me know and I will be happy to do what I can to be helpful.

Conflict of Interest: I am not a paid contributor. Rather, I am located in the same organization as the subject of this wikipedia article. Matg1513 (talk) 23:02, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Reply 22-MAY-2018
Regards,  .  spinten do    16:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) The proposed draft contains very minimal information about the subject himself. Certain portions of the draft, including the sections on the Zone of Normative and Political Mediation and School Vouchers and Tuition Tax Credits, discuss those issues or ideas without elaborating upon the subject's connection to those subjects, beyond stating that he performed research on those topics. Another paragraph discussing the National Education Policy Center makes mention of the subject's "founding" of the center, but then provides as references only the Center itself as a source, as else provides other people's research into the topics that the center deals with.
 * 2) Five of the sources include research performed by other individuals working in the same field as the subject, and are offered as confirmation of the passages of text which speak to those other areas of interest that the subject works on. This is problematic in the sense that the article's claims, and to a degree, the references provided which buttress those claims, should ideally only cover the topic of the article — that of the subject of Mr. Welner himself — and not these other areas. It is detrimental to the article to have sources which do not speak about the subject, but rather, speak only on issues which the subject has expressed an interest in through his research. The subjects that Mr. Welner is involved in are noble ones, however, having portions of the Wikipedia page to discuss them is generally frowned upon, as these would best be covered in the specific articles existing on Wikipedia which cover those topics, rather than on pages covering the researchers of the topics. To that end, additional independent sources should be sought which speak primarily about the subject, and which originate from sources outside of the subject's purview (a reference covering a claim made about the National Education Policy Center which originates outside of the center, for example). I have placed search suggestions at the top of the talk page to assist in finding these sources.
 * 3) The issues concerning the article as it stands now still need addressing, and to a degree, the proposed text does supply some of these changes (a lead section, for example). Normally I would have made these changes, but the lead section must contain information that is confirmed by references in the main body of text. In this case, the main body of text ought to be revised to remove information which goes beyond the topic at hand or else contain references to reliable sources which prominently speak to the subject Mr. Welner. Without having a clear sense of that text in this proposal, the changes to the lead could not be made. Please revise the draft to the best of your abilities according to the recommendations above, and reopen an edit request at your earliest convenience when these changes are ready to be reviewed.

Edit request
I am reopening this request. Thank you to Spintendo for your detailed feedback on this request. Feedback from Spintendo (see above) was used to redraft the proposed changes. The revised draft of changes can be found in my sandbox at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matg1513/sandbox.

In particular,
 * I attempted to find independent, reliable sources that speak primarily about the subject. A few sources discuss the subject in context of his involvement with a life event he shared with someone else, such as Smallheer (2018). There are two citations of the subject's authored materials. One provides background information from the subject that is not found elsewhere. The other is a news piece written by the subject with a disclaimer that offers details about one of his experiences that I have not found elsewhere.
 * I believe the topics discussed in the lead (career, NEPC, books) are now backed up by the body of the article.
 * For the most part, I removed topics that the subject has worked on and elaborated on the milestones of his life that are supported by independent sources.
 * I elaborated more on the subject's involvement in the National Education Policy Center's founding and his role in the center, noting the suggestion to use independent sources from outside of the center.
 * I left in section headings where I thought they might be useful.

I hope these edits demonstrate that I have read and understood your feedback. Thank you again for your help. Please let me know of any additional changes. Matg1513 (talk) 19:24, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Reply 24-MAY-2018
I would like to point to an excellent example of what, IMHO, we should strive for here, which is this page about Mr. Welner at the Education Writer's Association which is only 158 words, yet succinctly details all the main points which appear necessary to know about the subject. Unlike the proposed draft version submitted by this edit request, the EWA example wisely omits flowery descriptions of Mr. Welner's "expertise and critical stance on school vouchers and tuition tax credits" while at the same time it avoids the proposed draft's labyrinthine explanations of "policy issues surrounding the then-new type of private school vouchers that were created by giving large tax credits for donations to organizations that then packaged those donates [sic] vouchers to fund tuition." What needs to be in the draft proposal is a discourse on what the subject has definitively done and where (what institutions) the subject has done them. This shouldn't include nebulous assertions about the subject's "regular participation in public academic debates" nor should it include the subject's "appearances on C-SPAN" (which EWA similarly omits). If the subject's core academic accomplishments were to make up the bulk of the article — along with minimal mentions of the subject's notable publications — we would have ourselves an article which is very fine. I'm not sure if this has been achieved just yet. I urge other editors to read the draft version being proposed here; I'll leave open the edit request template in order to garner additional editor input.  .  spinten do    21:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Reply 27-MAY-2018
✅
 * 1) I have rewritten the draft and implemented a compromise version into the article which I believe highlights the salients points touched on in the draft.
 * 2) The redlinks were removed from the article.
 * 3) Since some of the external links are pay-walled, I've appended an external links maintenance template to the article.  .   spinten do    07:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

What is a good outline for this entry?
The comments on this talk page suggest the need for a revision. Maybe a good way to proceed is to develop an outline.

As is, it kind reads like:
 * A. intro
 * B. some awards/accomplishments
 * C. some research he published
 * D. some work/organizational affiliations

B, C, and D are interspersed together and there is only one heading: "Career." At the very least, I think B, C, and D should be separated and given their own headings/sections.

What else should be here? What is he known for? What has he done that is of public interest? A google search for "kevin welner" turned up 100's of results, but I'm not sure what matters the most. Welner seems to primarily be a scholar, kind of like a less well known version of Neil deGrasse Tyson. This entry could take the format from the Tyson entry and make a (smaller) entry here. Maybe I'd be willing to try to write a section if folks can decide on an outline. Let's use the below as a starting place--please edit this as desired:


 * intro
 * Early life (something chronologically arranged -- born, school, etc.)
 * Career (some work/organizational affiliations)
 * Views
 * Recognition (awards/honors)
 * Works (books, articles, etc.)

BTW, here's an outline from the Tyson entry:


 * 1	Early life
 * 2	Career
 * 3	Views
 * 3.1	Spirituality
 * 3.2	Race and social justice
 * 3.3	NASA
 * 3.4	Animal rights
 * 4	Media appearances
 * 5	Personal life
 * 6	Recognition
 * 6.1	Awards
 * 6.2	Honors
 * 6.3	Honorary doctorates
 * 7	Filmography
 * 7.1	Other appearances
 * 8	Discography
 * 9	Works
 * 9.1	Books
 * 9.2	Research publications
 * 10	References
 * 11	External links

List of links to sources about Welner
https://experts.colorado.edu/display/fisid_115565
 * Education, publication list, awards and honors
 * This link seems to be more comprehensive than the ones below — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.188.228.213 (talk) 14:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7829-3339
 * short narrative, publication list with links

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/colowelner-200
 * short narrative

https://www.c-span.org/person/?kevinwelner
 * list of 3 television appearances on C-SPAN

https://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/rick_hess_straight_up/2018/01/the_2018_rhsu_edu-scholar_public_influence_rankings.html
 * Welner is in the 2018 RHSU Edu-Scholar Public Influence Rankings (#123 of 200)

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/rick_hess_straight_up/2017/01/the_2017_rhsu_edu-scholar_public_influence_rankings.html
 * Welner is in the 2017 RHSU Edu-Scholar Public Influence Rankings (#82 of 200)

https://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/rick_hess_straight_up/2016/01/the_2016_rhsu_edu-scholar_public_influence_rankings.html
 * Welner is in the 2016 RHSU Edu-Scholar Public Influence Rankings (#73 of 200)

-- I stopped looking at rankings before 2016 -- Summary: He was ranked as a public influence education scholar for the last three years.

-- The above are kind of "meta" about Welner, but he has published a lot -- both in the popular press and academic journals. I'm not sure what to do with all that material.

External links gone?
Other than a bibliography section, I don't see external links in this article. Objections to removing the tag? Likeanechointheforest (talk) 20:41, 26 February 2021 (UTC)