Talk:Key (lock)

greater than a stub
This article looks greater than a stub. Any comments about a proposed page move at Talk:Key?? It says that this article is currently a stub and is thus out-of-date. 66.245.69.118 22:36, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Skeleton key
That part about skeleton keys isn't right. A key with a shank and a bit like the one illustrated is a "bit key", or a "bitted key". A bit key may or may not be a skeleton key, and a skeleton key may or may not be a bit key.

A skeleton key is a key made for a series of warded locks, which has no material that could be blocked from turning by any pattern of wards found in the lock series, and hence will work in any of them. Its not possible to make a skeleton key for all types of bit-keyed lock. For example: in double-acting lever locks.

The use of the term "skeleton key" to mean "bit key" is a colloquialism, and US-centric.

I suppose I could change the article myself, but I'm not in the mood. Sorry!

I am fairly new here, but I can tell you that the article has more than that wrong. Barrel keys are simply bit keys (or skeleton keys) which accept a post into the end of the key as to keep it aligned, handcuff keys are barrel keys for example. The article says that tubular keys and barrel keys are synonomous. Every locksmith I have ever conversed with will agree that "barrel key" has no relation to a tubular key. as for the bic pen "problem" that is only a problem with certain model kryptonite locks (for bicycles) most tubular key locks (aka Ace locks) have "mushroom pins" which makes it somewhat difficult to pick. Even if one did pick a tubular lock with normal configuration, on a decent lock you would have to pick it 7 times to get each face/back pin to slide past eatch other unless you had a tubular lockpick in which case once locked into place will act as a key of sorts, depressing all the pins to the correct levels the whole way around.

I (parautoptic) would take issue with the basic description of the key at the head of the article.... Although I have heard the working part of the key called the "blade" or even the "flag" It is almost universally known as the "Bit" and the variations known as "bitting". should we therefore change the description? As this is a consensus based show I have not changed the page but invite comments.... perhaps if no-one has any objections I will change it? There are a few other things that do not sound right either, but I shall do a bit of research before I say anything about them :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parautoptic (talk • contribs) 15:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Master key
Should we include information about how many master key solutions have a vulnerability such that it is possible to take a 'user' key and file it down such that it becomes a master key, even if just to say that many implimentations of master key systems are insecure in this way? Troublekit 07:42, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, logically any master key that has 3 pins on any one tooth has an effective "degree of freedom" on that tooth, and so there are 2^n different keys that will fit a master key system that has n sets of 3 pins on any one tooth. The best way to explain that needs some forethought... 70.24.1.179 14:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I think this page on keys is getting way too long and complicated. It tries to talk about too many different ideas and it's all over the place. Master keying should have its own page again. Yes we need to keep the line about the fact that there exists a practical attack, and also discuss other ways master keying reduces the security of the locks while increasing convenience. Entire books have been written on the subject of master keying. I don't see why Wikipedia only has one paragraph. Sbunny8 (talk) 20:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Ford master key
ford does not produce "master key" sets to my knowledge, there are 3 main sets of "tryout keys" ( 5 cut ignition, and doors, 8 cut door tryout (2 cuts within the ignition must be "progressioned" or tried out in sequence) and 10 cut which is seldom used anymore, 10 cuts have tryout sets, you take a set of keys and find one that works in the door which uses 6 of the 10 cuts, then you try using a diffrent set depending on the last 2 cuts of the first 6 cut door tryout keys. It is not a simple endeavour (even with tryouts that only work on worn locks you can expect to have a set of 256 or more keys) and most mechanics simply drill out the entire cylinder and replace.

Bump key
I saw a video about "bump" keys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Uv45y6vkcQ&feature=PlayList&p=9F680F6B4EC75B0E&index=9). Is it worth mentioning in this article?

The video is moved from the site "due to terms of violation". G®iffen 17:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You can see similar videos by doing a search for "bump key": http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bump+key&search=Search

Magnetic Key
I came across a patent recently for a key that opens the pins in the lock with an array of internal magnets. When the key is not inside the lock, the magnetic pins return to their 'closed' positions. I can't find any such keys commercially available; if they exist, are they worth mentioning in this article?

I am aware of magnetic keys/locks, though the only one I have ever found available to buy is Avocet ABS keys, which have a magnet on each key to operate a pin http://www.abs-secure.co.uk - Willh26 (talk) 15:19, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Mercedes Car key.
Mercedes automobiles have differently designed car keys. It would help this article if someone foundf a pic of one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sam729 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

Merge from Key management (access controll)
I'm completing the merge proposal [not my own]. Please put comments below. Shadowjams (talk) 20:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

article organization
There are (at least) two ways to categorize keys:
 * the physical type of key: single-sided Yale key, four-sided key, barrel key, tubular key, radio transponder key, infrared key, magnetic stripe key card, etc.
 * Applications of keys: house keys, car keys, hotel key, bike-lock key, padlock keys, etc.

In theory, any physical kind of key can be used in any application, although in practice certain combinations are extremely common and other combinations are practically never seen.

--68.0.124.33 (talk) 21:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Should the headings in this article be organized by the physical type of key (and then in the description for that type of key, mention the most popular application(s) for that physical type)? Or,
 * Should the headings in this article be organized by application (and then in the description for that application, mention the most popular physical type(s) of key for that application)? Or,
 * Should this article have both -- headings for every application, and then later headings for every physical type of key?

I find the article of great practical importance in as much as MANY or even MOST so-called experts don't know about all these types of locks/keys. However, it cries out of pictures of each kind of key/lock discussed. Moreover, what I would ALSO like is a chart with a rough summary of 1. overall security, 2. difficulty of copying(which would include prevalence of people/equipment that can copy. Thanks to all for working to improve this.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.111.10 (talk) 06:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the page should be organised below the key types section into smaller sections: Any thoughts on this? Willh26 (talk) 15:42, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Car keys - transponders, etc.
 * Standard Keys - pin tumbler, tubular, wafer, lever etc.
 * Commercial Keys - key cards, master keys, change keys, do not duplicate, keyed alike maybe?
 * Other - cruciform/cross keys, magnetic keys and other more rare keys such as paracentric

Copyedit
-- The     wikifyer's corner   11:00, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Navbox help

 * The newly-created Locksmithing needs some help. There are a lot of gaps in the article content of Wikipedia on locks and keys. In addition, many of the articles can be merged (and some split) to make the subject matter more clear. Have a look. StevePrutz (talk) 22:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

"Switchblade" key/TSA confication incident
I'm going to remove this passage for the following reasons... while it may have happened once and is properly referenced with reliable source, it was probably an extremely rare incident and thus not "notable". Moreover that news piece is from 2005, and these type of keys were new then and are no longer such an oddity it should ever be expected to happen to anyone now. Batvette (talk) 06:29, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Key duplication
On some TV shows, a person makes an impression of a key, on something like molding clay, and somehow makes a key from the impression of one side of the key. How is this done? I can't find any mention of this in the article. Liz Read! Talk! 03:42, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Ejector seats
The "Those Tough To Pick Door Locks, September 1969" link contains a google search query for "Gyrocopter ejection seat" I changed it to be a bit more on-topic. From: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M9gDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA134&lpg=PA90&dq=gyrocopter+ejection+seat&source=bl&ots=F6XdY0Bwxr&sig=D-qy0YIKOrhLBxDFV7-jbgpwi8o&hl=en&ei=kYKGTNG4Ksf84Abll6jSBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDcQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=gyrocopter%20ejection%20seat&f=true to: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M9gDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA134&lpg=PA90 74.103.21.253 (talk) 01:59, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Makes sense to me. Thanks. ("Gyrocopter ejection seat" how odd...) Grayfell (talk) 02:17, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

"Master key" vs "keyed alike"
Currently the article defines a master key as "A master key operates a set of several locks" and proceeds to say "master-keyed locks are configured to operate with two, or more, different keys". I think that should say "master-keyed locks are configured to operate with one or more different keys". As it stands, the article only mentions keyed alike locks (a set of locks all operated just one key) in the lead and then never addresses them again. Keyed alike locks do not require more than one key to open them ("change keys" according to the article's terminology). I am not very familiar with the lingo of the padlock world. If the term master key really does imply that change keys also exist, please let me know so we can improve the article. Jason Quinn (talk) 12:29, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Key systems
I have separated master keys and control keys out into a section called "Key Systems" along with new text for: keyed alike, keyed differently and maison key... as there are no sections on wikipedia relating to key systems! Only master keying is mentioned. I am proposing to have Maison key system merged with this page. Willh26 (talk) 21:24, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I have proposed that Maison key system be merged as it is too short and belongs in the section on key systems. Willh26 (talk) 21:24, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

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Problem in "History"
In the first subsection of "History" we find this:


 * The earliest known lock and key device was discovered in the ruins of Nineveh, the capital of ancient Assyria. Locks such as this were later developed into the Egyptian wooden pin lock, which consisted of a bolt, door fixture, and key. When the key was inserted, pins within the fixture were lifted out drilled holes within the bolt, allowing it to move. When the key was removed, the pins fell part-way into the bolt, preventing movement.


 * The warded lock was also present from antiquity and remains the most recognizable lock and key design in the Western world.

In the first paragraph, the expression such as this makes no sense because the Nineveh lock is never described. In the first sentence of the second paragraph, a new expression, warded lock, is introduced and never explained, and the phrase also present from antiquity is not only grammatically incorrect, but does not tell us just how old it is relative to the Nineveh lock.

These infelicities need correction. Wordwright (talk) 22:17, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Where was the earliest lock and key found?
In "The Ancient Near East and Mediterranean" we find this claim:


 * The earliest known lock and key device was discovered in the ruins of Nineveh, the capital of ancient Assyria.

The source for this claim is N. Cross de Vries and D. P. Grant, M. J. Design Methodology and Relationships with Science: Introduction. Eindhoven: Kluwer Academic Publishers. In the "History" section of "Pin tumbler lock" we find this one:


 * The first tumbler lock was found in the ruins of the Palace of Khorsabad in Iraq.

The source for this claim is Peter James and I. J. Thorpe, Ancient Inventions. New York: Ballantine, 1994. Since the title of this book indicates that the key is a featured topic, whereas the relation of keys to design methodology is opaque, I am inclined to think that James and Thorpe, by virtue of being centrally concerned with the key, have the better claim to credibility because the knowledge of the invention of the key is in their area of expertise.

In Bill Philips, The Complete Book of Locks and Locksmithing, McGraw Hill Professional 2005, we find this statement:


 * The oldest known lock was found in 1842 in the ruins of Emperor Sargon II’s palace in Khorsabad, Persia.

Again, Philips' area of expertise is keys and locks, so although he can of course be wrong, it is more reasonable to credit authors who have a presumptive claim to expertise than authors who do not, so it seems that the most precise statement is that the oldest known lock was found in Khorsabad. Since, however, we all know, as the example of "Persia" and "Iraq" shows, that the same places can have different names at different times in history, the next questions are, "What is the relation between Khorsabad and Nineveh?" and "What is the relation between Assyria and Iraq?"

In the article on Khorsabad we find this:


 * Dur-Sharrukin ("Fortress of Sargon"; Arabic: دور شروكين‎), present day Khorsabad, was the Assyrian capital in the time of Sargon II of Assyria. Khorsabad is a village in northern Iraq, 15 km northeast of Mosul. The great city was entirely built in the decade preceding 706 BC. After the unexpected death of Sargon in battle, the capital was shifted 20 km south to Nineveh.

So it seems that the correct formulation of the information must be this:


 * The earliest known lock was found in 1842 in the ruins of Emperor Sargon II’s palace in what was then the capital city of 8th-century B.C. Assyria, Dur-Sharrukin (now present-day Khorsabad in Iraq).

I will replace the first statement I quoted with this one. Wordwright (talk) 23:17, 13 September 2018 (UTC)