Talk:Keyline design

Hopefully arived at the most appropriate name for the page. Keyline/Keypoint didn't work as they are also terms used in typography. And as User:JSchinnerer pointed out its a more appropriate term than Keyline Planning. --Pfafrich 11:32, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Text copied from private email as an interesting distinction. (hope you don't mind John)

I would like to suggest early on that the topic be changed to Keyline Design instead of Keyline Planning, not the least because Yeomans' site itself is called Keyline Designs (though he also uses 'plan' and 'planning' etc. somewhat interchangeably in the site and book); also because permaculturists in my experience refer to it as design rather than planning; also because it is IMO a complex design system, and more than simply a planning methodology.

Admittedly part of this is my desire to distinguish between 'Design' and 'Planning', at least as they are used and abused in American English. Perhaps they are much more interchangeably used to mean essentially the same thing in UK and/or Australian and/or New Zealand English...?

Anyhow, my background and experience makes a significant distinction between 'design' and 'planning' and keyline looks much more like design.

In brief, 'design' is in general a non-linear iterative process that always considers a variety of contextual scales and seeks to expand perspective/ask 'larger' questions to inform the decision-making and implementation of whatever is being designed (for).

'Planning' is in general a more linear process that typically assumes and operates within a relatively fixed context of 'problem'/'issue' and 'solution', and decision-making is informed primarily from within the initially determined context.

I can wax more rhetorical/give examples if you want, that's enough for now...just curious as to your take on that distinction. I suspect most permaculturists would not appreciate what they do being called 'planning'...??

aloha, John S.

Article name
All due respect to John and the Wikipedian who posted the above considerations concerning this article's title. I suggest that neither "planning" nor "design" are appropriate for an encyclopedic article, unless they refer to Yeoman's copyrighted works by title. I think that a more generic, ergo more encyclopedic name would be Keyline principle. (Note the lower case second word, per Naming conventions). In my opinion, and this may be verifiable, the term "keyline principle" is widely used in a more generic sense these days and as far as I can tell, the Yeomans family has no objections regarding this use. Asserting the title "Keyline Design" to the Keyline principle is like attaching "Bucky Balls" to fullerines. My two cents worth. &bull; CQ 21:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Keyline principals, or possibly Keyline concepts are more apt titles. A Keyline is a particular contour. A Keypoint is particular point in a valley floor. Both are topographical features my father, P.A Yeomans discovered. He and I devised the name "Keyline". It was originally a registered trademark for agricultural and town planning use. It is no longer. (In Australia, Keyline Design is a registered business relating to agriculture, and is owned by my brother.) Keyline principals cover topographical planning of a farm (or town ) and also procedures for the rapid enhancement of soil fertility. It also includes procedures for determining optimum farm dam location and also the actual construction procedures etc. Keyline principals thus include planning, design, soil development, dam construction, fence and road locations, and cultivation techniques. The conglomerate is usually referred to at schools and universities as "studying the principals of Keyline" Keyline principals thus seems the wisest title. The history of Keyline and its contrast with conventional soil conservation teachings I have covered in some detail in my book PRIORITY ONE Together We Can Beat Global Warming which includes using Keyline principals for the rapid sequestration of carbon dioxide into soil. PRIORITY ONE can be read on line at www.yeomansplow.com.au. Allan Yeomans

I just want to add that keyline plowing is, in fact, NOT "Contour Plowing" but "plowing parallel to the keyline" which results in a pattern of going up in the valleys and down on the ridges. The whole point is that Contour plower leads to water draining into the valleys. -jordan fink

116.90.48.21 (talk) 07:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC) The original method of keyline, developed by P.A, used the chisel plow. This plow had a rather dramatic effect on the surface of the soil. When used on grazing lands, pasture loss was high. However, the pasture loss increased the organic matter available to the soil building process, as described by P.A.

The yeomans keyline plow was developed by Allen Yeomans. The new design of yeomans plows minimises surface disturbance, while loosening the subsoil. Although the yeomans plow minimises the effects of erosion, gradual mixing of soil horizons (over many years)is not as significant compared with the chisel plow.

Roots may not grow into a hostile subsoil, even if it has been loosened. For example, subsoil maybe toxic to plant roots. The importance of incorporating organic matter into the hostile subsoil over many years, was a keystone to the technique developed P.A, in my opinion.... -David B.

116.90.48.21 (talk) 07:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The topographical example link leads one to a confusing array of mapping links. Please give the one specific link that exemplifies keyline contouring/plowing - is it http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=-37.159154,144.252248&z=15&t=R&marker0=-37.159154,144.252248,Keyline%20design ?

Cleanup and Citations
I see it's been some time since there have been cleanup and citation notices on this page. I don't see anything here about what specifically is needed. I have my own ideas about cleaning up the writing to be clearer and more grammatically correct, as well as to add additional info. Re other cleanup and citations, am I missing info somewhere about what needs to be done? I guess I was thinking whoever applied cleanup and citation notices might have had something specific to suggest or request. JSchinnerer (talk) 08:01, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes this article could do with some attention, and cleanup most welcome. For citations it would probably need some third part sources, rather than just Yeoman's books.--Salix (talk): 20:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Simple explanation please, maybe a diagram?
I had a lot of trouble trying to figure out what the article was trying to describe, especially in the area of how it's done. I think I've finally gleaned that they are referring to something similar to contour plowing, but instead of plowing a "level" line along the contours, one tries instead to plow along a line that "tilts" towards a certain, calculated point, so the water will flow along the furrow towards that point, rather that the direction it would have gone otherwise? I'm still not very clear, for sure. A simple diagram or two would go a long way for those of us who aren't farmers or irrigation engineers. AnnaGoFast (talk) 03:19, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I wanted to say the same. After reading 70% of the article, i still had no clue what exactly this is about.
 * What excatly is the GOAL: To keep rain as much as possible 'on site' and make it infiltrate better ? OR, to concentrate it at some point - but what for ? To fill a pond or reservoir ? How does it benefit the land ?
 * This sentence: "In many nations, including Australia, it is important to optimize infiltration of rainfall, and Keyline cultivation accomplishes this while delaying the concentration of runoff that could damage the land" was the first comprehensive thing of that article. Can't you put that pargraph on top ?
 * And yes, a diagram would help a lot. The coordinates given for demonstration do not tell me anything. Yes i can see some few contour lines. But the vegetation did not change over the past 15 years, as can be seen in the google earth browser; so what. A mile North, at Irishtown, i can see some dams and that land looks more like it.
 * And while we are at it ... when the matter is already difficult enough, can't you, please, omit the weird 'ipse facto' which is a term of art, and does not improve the article by an inch. It's even highly questionable if it tells anything at all, in the two occurrences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.213.158.39 (talk) 13:37, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

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