Talk:Kfar Saba

Spelling Note
It can be Kfar Sava (official "academic") or Kfar Saba (unofficial but used by everybody including Mayor Ben Hamo and former Mayor Wald) but never "Kefar"


 * I think the article should be moved to Kfar Saba as that is the spelling used by the municipality (therefore it is official, despite possibly being unacademic). I will move it if no one objects. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 19:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that "Kefar Sava" is the spelling preferred by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. However, I'm not personally getting involved in the decision of what to name this article. - Gilgamesh 17:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I know I recommended you to check the CBS spellings myself at some point, seeing as how they appear on Israeli road signs AFAIK (and other reasons), but now that I think about it, many of them are not widely used, especially by officials in the cities themselves. Petah Tikva (vs. Petah Tiqwa, according to CBS) is a good example. By starting this discussion I'm trying to see what the consensus is, since there are a lot of spellings, and more than one can be called official. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 18:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Now that I think of it, up to three different official spellings can be mentioned, in order of highest priority to lowest. (1) The common English spelling, e.g. Jerusalem, Tiberias, Nazareth, Safed, Acre, Beersheba.  (2) The central government or local municipal spelling, whichever is more common in an Israel-wide context.  (3) The other of these two spellings which is less common Israel-wide than the other.  The first one should be the article name, and the other two (if different) should also be described and mentioned in their contexts.  Many place names in Israel are probably going to be the same for all three categories, and others will have two, and a few will have three.  Examples: Safed/Tzfat/Zefat, Nazareth/Natzrat/Nazerat, Tiberias/Tverya/Teverya. - Gilgamesh 03:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

In Israel there is only one official body that has the authority to determine place names, and that is the Government Names Committee. With all due respect to the mayor or the municipality web site, they do not decide what their city's name is. The official name in English is Kefar Sava. While the E in Kefar may not be essential (it is the transliteration of a schwa, which varies), the V (rather than B) in Sava is essential. Kfar Saba is nothing but a common mispronunciation. I really don't understand Wikipedia's consistent preference of common mispronunciations over official names.--128.139.104.49 (talk) 18:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The name is supposed to be the most recognizable to English-speakers worldwide, and Kfar Sava is definitely not recognizable to both English and Hebrew-speakers. Yes, it's the correct transliteration, and it's included in the article. Wikipedia does not usually give extra weight to official names. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I suggest you change the names of the articles Holon, Ramla, Lod and Sderot to the commonly used and recognizable to English and Hebrew speakers worldwide Hulon, Ramle, Lud and Shderot, respectively. We don't want to give extra weight to official names, do we?--128.139.104.49 (talk) 19:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That's ridiculous. Those names aren't common at all. Please do a Google search if you don't believe me. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 19:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Shderot is more commonly found by Google than Sderot ( vs. ). Add Yotvata, whose correct name gets a lower Google hit rate than the incorrect "Yotveta" ( vs. ). On the other hand, Ramle is not only the name used in English literature for centuries, but is also the commonly used name in Israel and even its determined mayor has a hard time remembering to use the official name Ramla, yet the Wikipedia article uses the official name. Obviously Wikipedia doesn't pretend to be consistent about naming. Back to Kefar Sava -- strangely enough, Encyclopedia Britannica prefers the official name. But Wikipedia is not like Britannica. Wikipedia shuns the official Names Committee's research and conclusions, ignores British Mandate documents and opts for the vulgar pronunciation, as indicated by Google. Is it necessary to bring any justification for the deviation from the official name, linguistic, historic or otherwise (as may be the case with Ramle)? No, a Google count is sufficient. Some scholarly accomplishment, this Wikipedia is.--128.139.104.49 (talk) 22:53, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? On default search settings, Sderot gets 1,300,000 hits against Shderot's 21,000. Yotvata gets 54,700 hits against Yotveta's 1,540. Ramla gets 888,000 vs. 180,000 for Ramle, and Holon gets 1,060,000 results vs. 64,700 for Hulon (most of which aren't even related to the city). I'm not sure how you have been searching. Wikipedia's naming convention system works better than you think, and I encourage you to register an account and start finding more about Wikipedia rather than criticizing it. Good day, -- Ynhockey (Talk) 23:30, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That's very strange. I get 1,330,000 for Shderot and 56,400 for Yotveta. Nevermind. Anyway, just to get it straight, the only argument you have in support of "Kfar Saba" is a higher Google hit rate? I'm reading through WP:NCGN and I note that: 1. Kfar Saba is not a widely accepted English name (such as Jerusalem); 2. I haven't seen a source that says that "Kfar Saba is the name most often used for ...", if you are aware of such a source, please provide; 3. Consulting Encyclopedia Britannica reveals no Kfar Saba, but rather Kefar Sava (same goes for Encarta); 4. and finally, the guidelines discourage raw Google searches to determine place names. The guidelines are indeed reasonable, and I believe they support my view.--128.139.104.49 (talk) 02:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Based on WP:NCGN and on the arguments above put forward by anon, I intend to move the article to "Kfar Sava"--Doron (talk) 10:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I support the move to Kfar Sava. It is the formal name and the only pronunciation used on Israeli radio news. "Kfar Saba" is indeed vulgar, both in the latin sense of the word (i.e. common) and in the sense that it is slang, not correct Hebrew. Still, it remains a (common) error. Odedee (talk) 19:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Name meaning
Grandpa's village? WRONG! according to the Hebrew academy, Sava is an Aramic word with a different meaning: http://hebrew-academy.huji.ac.il/sheelot_teshuvot/Pages/24031001.aspx This so called meaning should be Erased. Solico (talk)
 * The hebrew-academy URL now leads to http://hebrew-academy.org.il/sheelot_teshuvot/Pages/ "העמוד אינו קיים". Mcljlm (talk) 00:15, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Geography
Main thoroughfare is Weizmann street. Located on route 4. 18 km from Tel Aviv, 70 from Jerusalem. Raanana to the West, Hod Ha-Sharon to the South, Neve Yamin to the East. (Will elaborate)

Religious makeup
From what I can tell from the article as it is right now, the municipality is majority-Jewish?

My registrar idregister.com says it is situated here, and I'm curious.

Just a disclaimer that I'm not trying to draw unnecessary attention or conflict.


 * Yes, the city Kfar Saba is mainly Jewish. This page does not list a Jewish population for Kfar Saba (as it does for Jerusalem, for example), meaning it has a small to negligible non-Jewish population. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 16:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The "small to negligible" part may be correct. There are some non-Jews in Kfar Saba: immigrants from the former Soviet Union who qualify for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, and immigrants from other countries (notably Argentina) under the same status. Then, there are quite a few guest workers: nannies and caregivers from the Phillipines, construction and other workers (mostly from China and Eastern Europe). There are a few Arabs living within city limits, including students living on rented apartments, and the AbuSnena clan who live in the outskirts and carries some influence with City Hall for complex historical reasons. Note that most of the Eastern lands were once "Arab Kfar Saba", and that the name does not refer to a grandfather, but to a guy named Saba from pre-Talmudic who, so goes the legend, arranged the meeting between Alexander the Great and the Jewish High Priest (Alexander was a noted visitor of holy places of invadee's religions, and somehow he was persuaded to meet the High Priest on the plain and not venture to Jerusalem). elpincha 14:56, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Move vote
I guess the previous discussion didn't move along too well, so I'm proposing a vote for the naming of this article.

Vote
Kefar Sava (current, official [CBS]; 33,500 Google hits)

Kfar Sava (academic; 76,800 Google hits)

Kfar Saba (common, official [municipal website]; 278,000 Google hits)
 * 1)  Ynhockey (Talk) 11:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The use of "dunam" in an English document
I wonder why the word "dunam" appears in this document. As the document is intended for English speaking audience, either use hectares (10,000 sq. m) or just sq. m.

Therefore 7,500 dunams should be written as 750 hectares or 7,500,000 sq. m.

Alternatively - an explanation/link of the term dunam should be added.

Xenonius (talk) 10:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The situation is even worse, because before 1928 the dunam was 919.3 sq m and after 1928 it was 1000 sq m. Plus there is no way in general to tell whether a source writing about a pre-1928 area has converted the measure to the post-1928 scale.  Zerotalk 11:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Various sources

 * A professional archaeology source: . Zerotalk 13:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * A little history: . Says the land was purchased in 1892 but there was no village until 1903. Then it was destroyed during WWI. Zerotalk 13:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This source (unknown reliability) also says the town was established in 1903. I doubt the general reliability of the source since it states that the Arab village only existed since 100 years ago, but it is listed in 1596 Ottoman registers and was described in the 1850s. Zerotalk 13:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Avneri, Claim of dispossession, pp95-96, confirms the 1903 and adds details. Zerotalk 13:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

B class?
Recently the article has been promoted to B-class. I believe that the article does not satisfy B-class criteria. The article doesn't cover all major topics, and if all the unsourced content is removed, only about half of the article will remain. Much of the current information in the article is severely outdated (demographics, economy, education). So while some good work was done with the history, I think the article is far from satisfying B-class standards. I will change it back to C-class if there are no objections. —Ynhockey (Talk) 09:48, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Head image
Someone added the image: File:KfarSaba2.jpg to the infobox. I am concerned that it might be a copyright violation. Obviously the image is a render and not a photo (look at the unrealistic shadows, for example). Although I assume good faith, it's hard to believe that a user from Spain created a rendering of a random (future) apartment building in Kfar Sava and released it under CC. Can anyone help me find this rending on the Internet, replace the image, or confirm that it's CC? —Ynhockey (Talk) 10:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Images
An editor just deleted all images from the notable residents section. With reference to the image gallery rules. This is not an image gallery. And for images, the rule is "Images are typically interspersed individually throughout an article near the relevant text." See Manual of Style/Images. It is totally normal. See, for example, List of people from Los Angeles. Deleting all the images from all those lists would be a major change, and needs consensus. And deleting all images (or all people, similarly, since it is the same logic) because you are not sure who is more notable would also not be a consensus edit. So I restored the images. Please do not again delete the images -- which are quite normal in lists of notable persons and in such embedded lists -- without consensus (and a valid rationale). If need be, lets discuss with input from the MOS images editors. --2604:2000:E016:A700:4484:D7B0:8756:2C26 (talk) 18:50, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Most town articles do not have pictures of notable people from that town. These pictures are not really relevant to the town article. In any event if we were to have pictures it would most definitely not include Siebner (a barely notable athlete, appeared in one olympics on a relay team), whom you have been inserting in other articles as well, but rather focus on the most notable of the notable in the list with pictures and there are a number of athletes and non athletes who are much more notable than Siebner.Icewhiz (talk) 19:02, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * See comment here. 2604:2000:E016:A700:4484:D7B0:8756:2C26 (talk) 19:21, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

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British mandate population numbers
Where on earth does http://www.kfar-saba.muni.il get its population numbers during the British mandate era?? They don't fit with the 1921, 1932 and 1945 official numbers for the Tulkarm district at all. It nobody can explain it, I suggest we remove them, Huldra (talk) 21:30, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, I still don't understand where the British Mandate numbers come from, if no-one can come up with an answer in, say, a weeks time, I will remove them. Huldra (talk) 22:53, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, a long week....ok, so no-one have come up with an explanation...I am removing the numbers, Huldra (talk) 23:36, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Per source: שנות הארבעים המשיכה כפ"ס להתפתח ונמנו בה כ – 3,630 נפש. הגיעו עולים מתימן, לוב וטורקיה ובעזרת המועצה המקומית והמוסדות הלאומיים נבנו למענם שיכונים. בשנת 1946 נוסדה חברת "חצרות הדר", חברת השיכון של המועצה המקומית שנטלה על עצמה לשכן כמה שיותר עולים חדשים. בשנים שלפני קום המדינה התברכה כפ"ס בשורה של מוסדות חדשים שהבול בהם היו המרכז החינוכי "אונים (1945) ובית החולים מאיר (1947) שתפקד בתחילה כבי"ח לחולי ריאה. במשך כל אותן שנים השתייכו רוב הבוגרים בכפ"ס ל"הגנה" המחתרתית, והכינו עצמם לעימות עם השכנים הערבים, אם יבוא. לצד ה"הגנה" פעל במושבה סניף של אצ"ל ולח"י.

Google translation: During the 1940s, KPS continued to develop and numbered about 3,630. Immigrants from Yemen, Libya and Turkey came and with the help of the local council and national institutions were built for them. In the years before the establishment of the state, KP was blessed by a number of new institutions whose stamp was the Onim Educational Center (1945) and Meir Hospital (1947), which initially functioned as a hospital for lung patients. Throughout those years, most of the alumni in the KPS belonged to the underground "Haganah", and prepared themselves for a confrontation with the Arab neighbors, if he came. Alongside the Haganah, a branch of Etzel and Lehi operated in the colony. --Peditodelculo (talk) 00:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

The article is quite confusing since it mixes up the Arab village and the Jewish village without making it clear that they both existed about 2km apart for 45 years or so. The Mandate part of the article needs to cover both, but it doesn't. As for the censuses, "Kefar Sava" was in the Jaffa subdistrict and "Kfar Saba" was in the Tulkarm subdistrict. Zerotalk 09:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
 * thanks for the tip, I have now linked to the proper refs in the Kfar_Saba section. (I didn't expect that this place was in the Jaffa subdistrict, when close by Kafr Saba was in the Tulkarm subdistrict. ;) ) Huldra (talk) 21:03, 10 November 2019 (UTC)