Talk:Kharaj

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''discussion moved unedited from Talk:Dhimmi. Section header added''

Kharaj and dhimmi
Here it says that Kharaj was levied not on Dhimmis but on recent converts to Islam; , please state the source where it says that kharaj was levied on Dhimmis.Yuber(talk) 02:23, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's another source that states that Kharaj was required of all residents (not just jews/christians) Yuber(talk) 02:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Here is the specific quote "Later when most of the peasants in the conquered lands converted to Islam this distinction was put aside. Kharaj was also collected from Muslim peasants - using the same repressive means that was used on non-Muslims. It was no longer a financially valid proposition for the rulers to observe the difference." Therefore, Kharaj at first was only required of recent converts to Islam and Jews and Christians, but it soon became to be required of all.Yuber(talk) 02:35, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Your own link says At first kharaj was applied only to the rent collected from non-Muslim peasants or peasants that had recently converted to Islam in the conquered lands. According to the pact of Umar, dhimmis lost ownership of their land and had to pay kharaj as tenants. It was extended to recent converts, and then eventually in some regions to all peasants. However, by the original dhimmi pact it was meant for, and applied to, dhimmis. Here are more examples: --Jayjg (talk) 02:42, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The Pact of Umar was a writ of protection (dhimma) extended by Allah's community to their protégés (dhimmis). In return for the safeguarding of life and property and the right to worship unmolested according to their conscience, the dhimmis had to pay the jizya [poll tax] and the kharaj [land tax]. They were to conduct themselves with the demeanor and comportment befitting a subject population. They were never to strike a Muslim. They were not to carry arms, ride horses, or use normal riding saddles on their mounts. They were not to build new houses of worship nor repair old ones. They were not to hold public religious processions (including funeral processions), nor pray too loudly. Naturally, they were not to proselytize. They had to wear clothing that distinguished them from the Arabs Furthermore, dhimmis were to be restricted from government service. In other words, at least in theory, dhimmis were to be permanent outsiders with no real part in the Muslim Arab civitas Dei (Stillman, 1979, pp. 25-26).
 * kharaj Land tax established by Caliph Umar II to be paid by the dhimmis on the earliest conquered lands by the Muslims. As more and more Muslims acquired kharaj-paying lands and kharaj-paying dhimmi, land-owners gradually became Muslim.''
 * In each conquered land, the Jews and Christians were allowed to remain and cultivate the land in exchange for the payment of a tax to the local Muslim ruler. This tax was called the Kharaj. This system was designed to remind the tenants that Islam owned the land. Their national identities and histories were blotted out and soon became virtually nonexistent. They were forbidden to possess arms and thus became totally dependent upon the occupying Muslim power. In some areas, such as Morocco, this system became so oppressive that the Jews of that area were virtual serfs even as late as 1913, and were, literally, the property of their Muslim masters.
 * "The *Kharaj was a kind of land tax that had both a fiscal and symbolic role. Under kharaj, the peasant no longer owned the land but worked it as a tenant.  The kharaj also symbolized the God-conferred rights of the conquerors over the land of conquered and the infidels.


 * Both links specifically state that the Kharaj was applied to recent converts to Islam as well as Dhimmis in the first century or two. That means that it is NOT specific to dhimmis.  Later, it was applied to all peasants.  The distinction of Dhimmis cannot be made.Yuber(talk) 02:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Not to mention the tax was one of the factors that led downfall of the Ummayad dynasty, suggesting that Muslims did not like it either.Yuber(talk) 02:47, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

The many (not two) links are all quite clear that it was initially applied to dhimmis, as part of the pact of Umar; later extensions to former dhimmis etc. do not change that fact, and are not particularly relevant to the section itself, which outlines what the dhimmi laws were.

Once again, that is false. It was initially applied to dhimmis and to converts to Islam, therefore it was not specific to Dhimmis at any point in its history. Changing this in the article would be an inaccurate one.Yuber(talk) 02:54, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Some more views:
 * "The main taxes were two. The first was levied on the land or its produce (kharaj); to begin with there had been a distinction between the rates and kind of taxes paid by Muslim and non&#8208; Muslim holders of land, but this became less important in practice, although it remained in the law books." &mdash;Albert Hourani, A History of the Arab Peoples (Cambridge, MA : Belknap-Harvard University Press, 1991), p. 35
 * "Apart from a small religious levy on Muslims all other taxes were paid by the subject non-Muslim peoples. These included the Jizya  and the  Khar&#257;j. In later times these terms were differentiated to mean the poll tax payable by non-Muslims and the land tax. Under the early Caliphate, however, the two were interchangeable terms for the collective tribute levied by the Arabs as a lump sum from each region." &mdash;Bernard Lewis, The Arabs in History, (London, Hutchinson's University Library, 1950), p. 57
 * "If we take first the question of the taxation of non-Muslims and Muslims in the Umayyad state and the advantages to be hoped for from acceptance of Islam, it would be fairly easy, in theory at any rate, to provide an answer if the classical Muslim fiscal system had existed from the beginning. In this classical system Muslims specifically pay a religious tax, the zakat, which is levied at different rates on different types of property and wealth. Non-Muslims specifically pay a poll tax, the jizya, payable on the person of each non-Muslim, both as a sign of their inferior status in the Islamic state and as a return for the protection which this state offers them. Thirdly there is the kharaj. This is a tax payable equally by Muslims and non-Muslims on land which is liable for it, generally land which was conquered and became the property of the Muslim state but which was left under the cultivation of those who had worked it before its conquest, subject to a tax which was to be gathered for the benefit of the Muslims as a whole. When this land changed hands it remained liable for the kharaj, no matter what was the religion of its proprietor." &mdash;G.R. Hawting, The First Dynasty of Islam: The Umayyad Caliphate AD 661-750 (London, Routledge, 2000), p. 78
 * "A new principle came into play, however, with the expedition against Khaybar in 628. The Jewish farmers there were not expelled but allowed to go on cultivating on condition that they paid a proportion of their produce, primarily dates, to the Muslims. A similar principle was followed under Ab&#363;-Bakr and &#788; Umar, and as lands were conquered the inhabitants were assigned certain amounts as land-tax (khar&#257;j) in addition to a poll-tax (jizya) of so much per head. The precise terms varied according to whether a community submitted when first summoned to do so, or surrendered only after being defeated in fighting. Even in the latter case, however, the terms were not unduly onerous. [extensive elision] All Jewish, Christian and other non-Muslim groups within the Islamic empire had an arrangement of the kind described. The three elements found in Muh&#803;ammad's time are always found, namely, protection from external enemies, internal autonomy, and a payment to the treasury. In the case of the payments a distinction was later made between land-tax (khar&#257;j) and polltax (jizya); but the names and the precise nature of the taxes varied much to begin with." &mdash;W. Montgomery Watt, Islamic Political Thought: The Basic Concepts (Edinburgh, Edinburgh University Press, 1980), pp. 46, 50
 * "It was Hisham (r. 724-743) who finally set the taxes into a system that would be upheld for the next thousand years: Muslims paid the zakat, all property owners (with a few exceptions you need not worry about) paid on their land or buildings a tax called the kharaj, and Christian and Jewish men paid a per capita tax called the  jizyah." &mdash;Arthur Goldschmidt Jr., A Concise History of the Middle East (Boulder, CO, Westview Press, 1999) p. 63

All this ought to be thrashed out in an article on kharaj, of course. &#8212;Charles P. (Mirv) 02:58, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * What, yet another article in which he can continually delete well-sourced information that doesn't agree with his POV, while simultaneously making claims of his own which simply don't match the sources provided? That's an appealing thought. Jayjg (talk)  03:23, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Your own sources contradict your claims.Yuber(talk) 03:34, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Why don't you show me where, ok? Jayjg (talk) 03:56, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

end moved discussion

Why I am not a Muslim
User:67.161.2.106 has removed the following text:


 * Ibn Warraq has described kharaj as discriminatory and oppressive in his book Why I Am Not A Muslim.

I will leave it to the experts to discuss whether this book is relevant to the article. --Aleph4 13:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Deletions without explanation are typically considered vandalism. Jayjg (talk) 19:31, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Who cantranlate into french language the text of the Wiki in french ?
Thanks for your collaboration...--81.245.63.50 13:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Invitation to ameliorate this article
Dear, I invite you to ameliorate this article based on the accomplished work you made in the jizya article. Regards; 16:15, 20 February 2016 (UTC)CounterTime (talk)


 * Thanks, . That's certainly on my agenda. There are some problems in articles with higher page view counts I'd like to fix first, though. Eperoton (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2016 (UTC)