Talk:Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum

Citation
Citation would help. Given that all suggested evidences are circumstancial, I doubt any serious academic would make definitive conclusion to this matter. Vapour

A large majority of the sources in this are questionable, outdated or no longer accessible in any form. Perhaps the citations should be revamped to better substantiate claims.

Removing noncompliant tag
I've added 2 citations and 4 good external links. The article still needs elaboration and expansion, but I don't have time for that now. Someone else can use the references I've posted to work up a fuller treatment of this topic. --Textorus 00:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oversold
Even if gay, claiming they were the first 'gay' couple is way overselling this, even using the words 'recorded' history.68.211.77.10 11:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

So, um.. precedent? None? Then they're the first recorded gay couple in history.

The article is so poorly written. The reference given for the comment that N and K are the first recorded gay couple does not say that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.138.172.79 (talk) 18:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Contradict?
With January 2010 edits, the article now kind of contradicts itself? -- AnonMoos (talk) 08:04, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't necessarily contradict itself. In the opening line it says that the two were brothers, probably twins.  A few lines later it says they were probably the first same-sex couple recorded in history.  Technically, they could have been both.  Still, I see what you mean.  It is confusing.  The line saying they were a couple links to a book published by a university press.  The line claiming they were brothers links to a publisher I hadn't heard of before.  When I searched for that publisher on Wikipedia, the first thing that came up was a book on Astrology & Fortune Telling.  Based on that, I'm tempted to remove that first line as insufficiently supported, but I'd like to see what other people think first.  Markwiki (talk) 12:08, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I think ideally, unless claims about the relationship of the subjects come from Egyptologists who have actual experience researching them and who then they should probably be removed. The claim is attributed to Lorna Oakes, who appears to have some credentials as a scholar according to this page: http://www.bbk.ac.uk/hafvm/staff/sessional/oakes Although other sources have been pretty clear in discussing the subjects, the claim attributed to her is mentioned in an almost offhand way, and what exactly she may be claiming (or possibly contradicting) in regards to "K&N" seems kind of ambiguous. Does she refute the conclusion that they were a couple? Or is she "adding" that not only were they the first recorded gay couple, but also in her opinion the first recorded "twincestuous" relationship? Without the book, it's not possible to know exactly what she's said about the subject, if it's a correct attribution, or a mischaracterization, or what have you.Adrigon (talk) 14:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * have been interviewed by the major media sources about them, OR
 * have published material about them in major/reputable sources,
 * Since things on Wiki are never a finished product, I think it would be fine to leave it as is, potentially adding a description to parse out the confusing aspects until more on the details of the Oaks source can be determined.Luminum (talk) 14:53, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Should Homosexuality in ancient Egypt be merged into this article or section.
NO - I think that the idea that these men were a gay couple has been around a while and warrants a mention in the article, but considering it is not proven and they do appear with their respective families, I think this should be a short mention. Not something written into the article as a main point or even a considerable part of the content. The tomb and the individuals is rather interesting and I would prefer this article to be about these two individuals and their tomb. --AnnekeBart (talk) 18:10, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, this is a case somewhat similar to the Merneptah stele etc. -- if it weren't for the feature which is of special interest to moderns (in this case, the gay-couple thing), then the archaeological artifact would be of interest to professional scholars only, and quite unknown to the general public. Therefore it's difficult to write an article which does not give prominence to the feature which is of special interest to moderns... AnonMoos (talk) 19:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Concur with User:AnnekeBart (and User:AnonMoos). Such a merger would be an undue synthesis. Maybe they were a "gay-couple", but even if they were, they were prob foremost ancient Egyptian royal servants depicted in a tomb. Freddie Mercury wasn't mostly reknowned for being bisexual, he was rather mostly reknowned for being a singer and musician. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 15:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I think Homosexuality in Ancient Egypt should definietly be merged with this article. I wrote on the talk page over there about their status as identical twins, which may be why they are depicted as embracing in their tomb. The evidence of wives and children means that they probably weren't exclusively gay, if they were. Consider that the tomb paintings of daily life were meant to ensure the deceased would enjoy such a life in the afterlife. The tomb has enough information that we know them to be twins, not gay incestuous lovers.

The bottom line of this matter is that the evidence is too ambiguous to say with any certainty. Describing them as the first gay couple in AE:Homosexuality is an exaggeration, and without them the article has hardly any content. Merge it, and then edit it considerably. Edit: I changed my mind. Homosexuality should be deleted on the grounds that it's modern speculation about an ancient culture. Heilingetorix (talk) 13:45, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Do Not Merge: This proposal is not well thought out, and mixes apples and orange crates. It's like proposing to merge Homosexuality in ancient Greece with Harmodius and Aristogeiton. One is about a geographic area in a certain time; the other is about actual people who lived there.

And it's not just "speculation about an ancient culture" - there are a number of Eqyptian texts that make reference to homosexual behavior, but aren't yet included in the article.

Granted, both Egyptian articles are a bit thin at the moment, and K&N may have been just twins, but as time goes on interested and knowledgeable editors can always add more to each one. That's what an open enyclopedia is for, right? But merging them would just be silly, don't go there. Textorus (talk) 15:35, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Should such evidence suggest it should be in Homosexuality in Ancient Egypt. The only reason the merge is being suggested is because K&N are the only example of homosexuality in ancient egypt that's in that article. Let me see if I can find something. Edit: I found something.Heilingetorix (talk) 17:13, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140826120735/http://www.archaeologie.hu-berlin.de/aegy_anoa/publications/kammerzell_old-egyptian-and-pre-old-egyptian/at_download/file to http://www.archaeologie.hu-berlin.de/aegy_anoa/publications/kammerzell_old-egyptian-and-pre-old-egyptian/at_download/file
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101020071548/http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/sites/africa/niankhkhnum_and_khnumhotep.html to http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/sites/africa/niankhkhnum_and_khnumhotep.html

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Both links work. Minnesota State U. E-museum is closed, now on Wayback machine; Archaeology at Humboldt-Berlin still retrieves Kammerzell chapter from Texte und Denkmaeler.Jessegalebaker (talk) 14:17, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Jan. 2017 edits to this article by user Jessegalebaker
For academic integrity I must state that I have no special qualifications in Egyptology. My ability to read French and German, in which college-level skill is prerequisite for admission to any university Egyptology program, is limited as well. Difficult subject area where interpretation varies by scholar and consensus opinions are few.

editing program in chronological order

 * Corrected caption to wrestling image in section on the tomb. The Wikimedia photo with this article is a detail from Plate V in Percy Newberry, Beni Hasan Part II, Archaeological Survey of Egypt, F. Griffith Ed., 1893. Anachronistic in this article since Beni Hasan Khnumhoteps and Baqts were about 500 years later.
 * Corrected translations of tomb owners’ names, as supplied by Tour Egypt [Government of Egypt web site ].
 * Conformed tomb plan to standard Porter & Moss nomenclature.
 * Added new subsection on offering scenes. Defensible; the jnw, bAkw, Htp-dj-nswt, and nDt-Hr category breakdown for offering formulas is widely used in the field.
 * Added section on titulary.
 * Added section on banquet scene..
 * Added section on career.
 * Added section on funeral procession. Currently, this ends the article; I won't expand it further.

major professional sources specific to this tomb
Ahmed Moussa & Hartwig Altenmüller (1977), Das Grab des Nianchchnum und Chnumhotep, Darmstadt, Germany: Philipp von Zabern. This is the generally accepted publication of the tomb. ISBN 978-3-8053-0050-6

Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of Sciences, Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae carries many of the Moussa & Altenmüller text transliterations and translations online.

other sources
Osirisnet [web site], by John Hirst & Thierry Benderitter, is a lovely compilation of tombs, but not citable because it does not cite its own sources, nor is there reason to believe its creators are Egyptologists. Included for picture credits.

Thomas Dowson (2007), "Archaeologists, Feminists, and Queers: Sexual Politics in the Construction of the Past," pp. 89-102 in Feminist Anthropology: Past, Present, and Future, Pamela Geller, Miranda Stockett (Eds.), Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press ISBN 978-0-81-222005-6 Quote: "Greg Reeder, an independent gay writer (i.e. not a normatively trained archaeologist) has shown that the same canon was used to represent these two men as was...used to represent husband and wife at the same time" (p. 97). Nonetheless published by Francis & Taylor.

Tried to clean up the citations and substitute better sources where possible. So far, the article relies too much on publications about Giza and Abusir, which can be relevant, but should be supplemented with Saqqara material on people buried nearby, especially potential colleagues of the tomb owners. Jessegalebaker (talk) 12:09, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Article ready for review; Copyright/Original research issues
Copyright affects most of the images on this page: I uploaded and used eight images under a fair use claim. This might be incorrect; fair use is harder to defend for images than for text quotes. The images below are used only here and can be deleted without side effects.


 * 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Niankhkhnum_and_Khnumhotep_fishing_and_fowling,_composite_scene,_Dyn._5,_ancient_Egypt.jpg
 * 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Niankhkhnum_and_Khnumhotep_embracing,_at_the_false_doors_in_their_tomb,_Dyn._5,_ancient_Egypt.jpg
 * 3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NDt-Hr_offerings_in_tomb_of_Niankhkhnum_%26_Khnumhotep.jpg
 * 4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Banquet_scene_in_tomb_of_Niankhkhnum_%26_Khnumhotep.jpg
 * 5) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Music_and_dancing_scene_of_Ti_(above),_detail_from_stela_of_Nefret-iabet_below,_Old_Kingdom,_ancient_Egypt.jpg
 * 6) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carpenter_planing_a_backrest_(above),_detail_from_a_Sahure_banquet_scene,_Dynasty_5,_ancient_Egypt.jpg
 * 7) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heb-Sed_festival_of_King_Niuserre,_Dyn._5,_ancient_Egypt.jpg
 * 8) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Funeral_procession_of_Niankhkhnum_and_Khnumhotep,_Dyn._5,_ancient_Egypt.jpg

Four images below are on the Commons since ca. 2008 by another editor, with claim of free license from Jon Bodsworth. Yet be aware museums license private or classroom use, rarely republication. Neither Bodsworth nor the images are accessible at the website given for them. If these items are deleted from Wikimedia or required to show license/fair use; it will affect multiple articles in English and foreign-language Wikipedia. I do not know procedures for image usage review.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mastaba_of_Niankhkhum_and_Khnumhotep_entrance.jpg
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mastaba_of_Niankhkhum_and_Khnumhotep.jpg
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mastaba_of_Niankhkhum_and_Khnumhotep_scene_1.jpg
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mastaba_of_Niankhkhum_and_Khnumhotep_embrace_2.jpg

Remaining two images are my own work but might constitute original research because hieroglyphs occur. These images can stay on the Commons.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Niankhkhnum_%26_Khnumhotep_embracing_at_false_doors_in_their_tomb._(reconstruction_drawing,_svg_format).svg
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Manicurist.png

Article will require editing if images are removed. It is long enough to consider cuts. Please read for flow before making cuts; the sections aren't fully independent of one another. I have been improving the image use rationales on the eight copyright images I uploaded. The main problem is that the immediate sources have usually licensed the image from somewhere else. I have traced original publication of all items except #6 and annotated the file pages. Jessegalebaker (talk) 18:58, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304195723/http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf_library/altenmueller_okaa_2006.pdf to http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf_library/altenmueller_okaa_2006.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081011131428/http://www.gizapyramids.org/ to http://www.gizapyramids.org/

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Trimming some excess
I'm going to try to trim some excess info. Additionally, there seem to be a lot of notes that were never referred to in the text so I will see what can be done with that Merytat3n (talk) 00:16, 20 May 2021 (UTC)