Talk:Khongirad

POV dispute
This article is about the history of a modern thriving Kypchak ethnic group which constitutes a major portion of Kazakhstan's Middle Juz. It is as wrong to present the nation as a Mongol tribe because this is how it can be interpreted from Mongolian Historical sources as it would be to present the Mongols as a Chinese nation as they can be presented from Chinese historical sources. This article needs to be re-written to reflect the correct language and modern condition of the Hingir and remove all Mongol Bias. Hongirid (talk) 06:56, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 00:00, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Hongirad → Qongirat – Since this article is about a brief but illustrious period in the history of the Qongirat ethnic division of the Kazakh nation it seems it would be best to rename the article with a move. Hongirid (talk) 19:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC) Are there any further suggestions to include in this proposal? --Relisted. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 22:52, 7 January 2014 (UTC) Hongirid (talk) 17:52, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * My advice is to use the Requested moves method. That way you have a chance to provide some evidence for your contention.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This discussion has already taken place thank you.Hongirid (talk) 18:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, mildly the proposed move. To further this move discussion.  I am not familiar with the subject area but if Qongirat (currently a redirect to this article) is a somewhat larger topic and an editor wants to expand the current Hongirad article to cover the larger topic, rather than starting a separate article on Qongirat, that seems fine to me. -- do  ncr  am  22:26, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose History_of_Mongolia "The destruction of Uyghur Khaganate by Kirghiz resulted in the end of Turkic dominance in Mongolia. According to historians, Kirhgiz were not interested in assimilating newly acquired lands; instead, they controlled local tribes through various manaps and they didn't live in today's Mongolia". "they were expelled from Mongolia by the Khitans in 924".
 * Hongirads lived along the Khalkha River of Mongolian Dornod Province, it is too far from the Turkic land. Many names of them have Mongol origin. Sczc (talk) 02:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You can not quote wikipedia as a reason Szcz. Besides, Mongol etymologies have been invented for many names of Turkic origin in Soviet times in order to divide tribal nations along linguistic lines. Classic divide and conquer strategy. The history of no central Eurasian Steppe tribe can be treated as within the boundaries of any modern nation state precisely because of the migratory nature of their history as you mentioned. Thus the histories of modern Mongolian speaking Kyrgyz and Modern Mongolian speaking Kazakh tribes such as the Kereit (Mongolian Khereid) or Qongirat (Mongolian Hongirat) need to be dealt with under articles about the ethnic groups not fragmented into a myriad of generally un-sourced articlesunder misnomers in order to push this or that political agenda. Even *if* cautiously we wanted to avoid the modern literature as biased towards the "Turkic" agenda as you called it on your other post at Talk:Khereid, one still can not escape the facts that the modern authors are not saying anything different from the oldest sources.Hongirid (talk) 09:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose No reliable sources have been presented to support this change. There is also another related moved proposed at Talk:Khereid where the proposer of the change has refused to provide any sources to support that change either.--Toddy1 (talk) 16:04, 1 January 2014 (UTC)



Discussion
Some of them moved there in the 13th century. Dei setsen met Esukhei baatar in Mongolia and Hulun Lake's Hongirads voluntarly joined Temujin. The UNESCO celebrated 750th anniversary of the Secret History of the Mongols (SHM) in 1990. /Celebration of the 750th anniversary of the Secret History of the Mongols/ Sczc (talk) 05:39, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Also note the cognate city of Qo‘ng‘irot/Kungrad in Karakalpakstan. —  AjaxSmack   01:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Kipchak vs Mongol
Dear Toddy1 you brought a request to my talk page that you wanted to discuss whether this Kazakh ethnic group are Kipchak or Mongol. I recommend you read something about the Kazakh people (Middle Juz) you will see that Kazakhs are Kipchaks not Mongols. Hongirid (talk) 18:54, 30 December 2013 (UTC) p.s. Toddy1, Why did you use a different username (User:Sczc) when you edited the article instead of the same one you used on my talk page? Hongirid (talk) 18:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Citation issues
The following pullet point appears in the article:
 * "Ulaan zalaat: ulaan (red), zalaa (tassel); people who wear red tassel. Today, Mongols call themself "red-tasseled Mongols" because Mongols adore fire. Shamanic practices continue in present day Mongol culture."

Let us go through the citations to see if they support this. I will delete the irrelevant citations, and put the general point about Mongols and shamanism in a separate paragraph supported by the citations that are good for this.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:31, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * http://website.leidenuniv.nl/~haarbjter/shamanism.htm - (you have to clink on the link marked Shamanism to reach the right page)
 * Shamanism in China: bibliography, by Barend ter Haar, who teaches at the Institute for Chinese Studies. Mentions that a book called Popular Religion and Shamanism includes "as well as three studies of shamanism among non-Han cultures (Mongol, Tungusic and Daba)".
 * http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/bender4/eall131/EAHReadings/module03/local_beliefs.html
 * Ohio State University, Local Belief Systems, by Professor Mark Bender. This supports the statement "Shamanic practices continue in present day Mongol culture."  As far as I can tell, it says nothing in particular about the Hongirad.
 * http://chinaperspectives.revues.org/5288
 * China Perspectives. This is a book review by Stéphane Gros of a book by Aurélie Névot called Comme le sel, je suis le cours de l'eau: le chamanisme à écriture des Yi du Yunnan (Chine) [Like salt, I follow the current: The literate Shamanism of the Yi of Yunnan].  The book covers the shamanic religion of a people called the Nipa in the Yunnan Stone Forest.  In other words it is irrelevant to this article.
 * http://www.yale.edu/seacrn/asia_members.htm
 * This a Yale University, Collaborative Research Network list of team members for South East Asia. As far as I can see this source does not support the statements.  It is irrelevant to this article.


 * The information added on 2 January does not provide any kind of citation to justify:
 * "Ulaan zalaat: ulaan (red), zalaa (tassel); person who wear hat with red tassel. Today, Mongols call themselves "red-tasseled Mongols" because Mongols wear hat with red tassel and they adore fire. Fire is a general symbol of eternal growth, wealth, and success and a figure of fire is used in Mongolian flag, coat of arms and soyombo symbol. The three tongues of the flame represent the past, present, and future."
 * A citation is needed for this.


 * The two citations that justify the statement "Shamanic practices continue in present day Mongol culture." Do not in any way justify any of the statements about the Ulaan zalaat.  Nor are they obviously linked to the Ulaan zalaat; it is a generalisation about present day Mongol culture.  By the way, what is the point of having the statement "Shamanic practices continue in present day Mongol culture." in the article at all?--Toddy1 (talk) 06:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

This sentence just clarify previous sentences. Traditional Mongol hats: Sczc (talk) 11:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Genghis Khan's mother?
Genghis Khan's mother was an Olkhunugud, not a Qongirat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.252.55 (talk) 06:01, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

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