Talk:Khosro Roozbeh

copied from User talk:BoogaLouie
I saw one of your edits in tha article Khosro Roozbeh, you wrote:
 * Rouzbeh was a skilled spy who escaped detection of counterintelligence until 1977, "by which time he was a full field Marshal in charge of intelligence agencies in all three branches of the armed forces. A SAVAK officer writes that this field marshal had been giving information to the Soviets since his days in the Military Academy in the 1940s . Abrahamian, Ervand, Tortured Confessions by Ervand Abrahamian, University of California Press, 1999, p.94-95


 * the book Tortured Confessions is available online here, i read pages 94 & 95 but haven't found what you wrote in the article, the interesting thing is Khosro Rouzbe was executed in 1958 (as the article mentions) and wasn't alive in 1977 to give information to soviets!! infact the book is saying the opposite, this is what I see in that book:


 * ... In fact, it turned out that the Soviets did have an agent in the Iranian armed forces, but he was neither in the Tudeh nor in its military organization. He escaped detection until 1977, by which time he was a full field marshal in charge of intelligence agencies in all three branches of the armed forces. A SAVAK officer writes that this field marshal had been giving information to the Soviets since his days in the Military Academy in the 1940s...

can you explain that? it's totally strange for me! --Transparagon (talk) 16:41, 26 April 2009 (UTC


 * Thank you for catching that atrocious error. The part in Tortured Confessions (p.94) that talks about the field marshall in the Iranian military does not mention that field marshall's name but goes right on to talk about Rouzbeh "the military organization's de facto head." I copied that text down and later used it for the wikiarticle. In my haste I thought the two people were the same. --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Also you wrote in the article:


 * In his ideological beliefs Rouzbeh was opposed to liberalism and thought many Tudeh leaders `mere reformers,` bourgeois liberals,` and `parliamentary lobbyists.

and you refered to page 81 of Tortured Confessions. but what I see in the book is:


 * Rouzbeh deemed some of the Tudeh leaders "mere reformers," "bourgeois liberals," and "parliamentary lobbyists." In his memoirs, Ovanessian praises Rouzbeh as a sincere but impatient radical in need of a firm hand

as far as I know there's a big difference between "some" and "many". if I'm wrong then you can explain to me and clear that for me. Transparagon (talk) 17:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes I should have used "some" and not "many". I certainly won't contest your edit. I think we should add this from Abrahamian though: Contemptuous of the party for being too `moderate`, Rouzbeh had resigned in 1946 and not rejoined until the early 1950s. He confessed he had thought the assassination of such a popular anti-court journalist as Massoud would polarize Iran and thus radicalize the Tudeh. (Abrahamian, Ervand, Tortured Confessions by Ervand Abrahamian, University of California Press, 1999 p.94-95) --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Quotations
I'm going to add quotations marks for quotes from books (usually by Abrahamian) if only for copyright reasons. --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Have added more text from Abrahamian books, rewritten, and added quotes - hopefully more carefully then earlier edits. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Dispute over Lead
Mostly copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BoogaLouie#wrong_reference_or_perhaps... :

I do not think that adding the information about assassination of the journalist to the lead is proper. it has been mentioned in the body of the article. the book tortured confessions is about confessions made under the torture, so we don't know under what condition Rouzbeh confessed and it's not that important to be written in the lead. --Transparagon (talk) 11:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Per wp:lead the lead "should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable,". I put it to you that Khosro Roozbeh, is not notable because he wrote "a number of pamphlets on chess, artillery warfare, and together with co-author Ardeshir Ovanessian, the country's first political lexicon." He is notable because he organized the infilitration and recruitment of hundreds of military officers on behalf of the communist party to overthrow monarchy (which is mentioned in the lead), and because of his provocateur act of assasinating a fellow regime opponent in hopes of "polariz[ing] Iran and thus radicaliz[ing] the Tudeh."(which is not described in the lead except for a vague mention of his being "controversial").
 * It's not that the lead is so long there's no room for the sentence, or that we can't add some qualifying phrase like "he confessed to - although under what conditions or torture is not known - ".
 * I could also add that someone being tortured to point of telling falsehoods to please his torturers would certainly not have absolved the Tudeh Party ("he carried out the Massoud assassination without the party's knowledge"), which his putative SAVAK torturers surely would have liked to have made look bad. --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:47, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

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