Talk:Kickoff returner

Rename
I don't think that this article should be renamed kick returner. And if it is, I think we should merge the punt returner article into that one.  RC-0722 communicator/kills 04:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, every time I hear announcers use the term "kick returner", they seem to use it as a slang term for "kickoff returner". If, however, someone still thinks it's necessary to move kickoff returner to kick returner, I think "punt returner" should stay where it is.  Burner 0718  JibbaJabba!  04:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Kick returner means kickoff returner in the football world. A renaming should happen, but certainly not a merge. A Google search of "kickoff returner" yields roughly 26,000 results. (Or at least it did last night.) A search of "kick returner" yielded about 457,000 results. "Kick returner" is a vastly more common term. This is an open-and-shut case.► Chris Nelson Holla! 04:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But the meriam-websters dictionary describes a kick (in football) as "To punt" How do we account for that? The official definition should be heavily favored over a slang term. After all, this is an encyclopedia. If we want to go by slang terms, why don't we just rename the quarterback QB, runningback RB. etc.  RC-0722 communicator/kills 14:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Not if the official name is far less common. Pats1 already gave you a good example of this with Burma. And no, this would not be like renaming Quarterback QB. It'd be like renaming this article KR. Let's look at an NFL.com depth chart. Look at the position key at the bottom. KR = Kick returner and PR = punt returner. No confusion there. Face it - in the football world, kick returner is simply the more common name for a kickoff returner.► Chris Nelson Holla! 14:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, lets suppose that an english speaking european want to look up american football. Now without being used to all the "jargon" that is used in football; he would think, "Wait a minute, how is a kick returner any different from a punt returner? After all, a punt is a kick, and is classified as such in my Websters dictionary." Now our little brit is becoming a bit confused by now isn't he? BTW, there really shouldn't be any reason to rename this article because if you type in kick returner; it takes you here? So there really shouldn't be any problem with the name the way it is now. And if you don't agree with that; Put a Helmet On!  RC-0722 communicator/kills 14:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Then he would learn that in football, a punt is a punt and a kick is a kick. The articles will explain this. If you go to the dictionary to understand football, then you're hopeless anyway.► Chris Nelson Holla! 16:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, you are not. If you insist upon changing the name; at leat say something like this in the header, "A Kick returner (or kickoff returner, KR) etc. The least you can do is mention it official name.  RC-0722 communicator/kills 18:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * RC is right. this is without a doubt one of the lamest arguments i have seen. first of all, if kick returner ends up here, i dont see what the problem was to begin with. second, it makes no sense to call it a kick return, as RC mentioned above. what about punts? theyre kicks. yet kickoffs are far from punts. the kickoff returner is not the punt returner. case closed. what a waste of time.... Elisa EX PL OS i ON  talk.  21:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Elisa, you are a genius. You just reminded me of something. What about safey punts? they're like kickoffs, only you punt. Now, how are going to account for that?  RC-0722 communicator/kills 21:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't discuss this with people that don't know about football.► Chris Nelson Holla! 21:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hear that guys (and girl)? That is the sound of a victory. Nelson I will have you know that I know just as much about football as you do; and Burner and Elisa know more than me. So I will ask you not to call me and my collegues ignorant on a subject that we happen to excell in. Also, I have noted that you did not answer my questions, Why did you not answer my questions?  RC-0722 communicator/kills 22:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I fear the more I converse with you the closer I get to letting loose a stream of blatantly honest personal attacks. So I'm not going to. I'll just continue to pipe this page whenever I link it, so all links say "kick returner." So you win. But not really.► Chris Nelson Holla! 22:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not going to do what? Converse with me? Or make "a stream of blatantly honest personal attacks."?  RC-0722 communicator/kills 22:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Converse.► Chris Nelson Holla! 22:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hesky tesky shatzkabini putchi on the beatnica with knifis.  RC-0722 communicator/kills 22:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I will substitute words with their definitions so this sounds less harsh. Dude, [gain possession of] a [quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body].► Chris Nelson Holla! 22:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No need to substitute anything here. I get that at school; I can take it at school. If I get it here; I will take it here. You don't have to worry 'bout my feelings; I'm blunt and proud of it. If someone is annoying; I tell 'em and would expect them to do the same. So go ahead with your personal attacks [which I could (and almost did) report you for]; see if I care. You don't have to worry 'bout being harsh; ask Burner. He'll tell you people call me names and insult me all the time. So while you are calling people names and informing them of irrelevant, false, facts; I will be improving WP like I came here for. BTW, you used the wrong definitions.  RC-0722  communicator/kills 22:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) I used the ones I intended.
 * 2) If almost no one liked me and insulted me all the time, I'd think long and hard about my personality.► Chris Nelson Holla! 22:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, you're not me; are you?  RC-0722 communicator/kills 22:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, thankfully.► Chris Nelson Holla! 22:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The feeling is mutual. Put a helmet on.  RC-0722 communicator/kills 23:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, suddenly this seems more like a verbal boxing match than a content dispute. Chris and RC, get it back on track before we take this to the next level (arbcom, which the way this is going might be possible).  Burner 0718  JibbaJabba!  23:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Alright.. when the discussion gets off topic, it's time for somebody to step in. Am I that person? No, but really only Burner0718 has, so I'm taking some responsibility. To both RC-0722 and Chrisjnelson, is this really worth it to you two? Is the title of an article really worth this long dispute? I certainly don't believe so. It's as significant as a bench-clearing brawl with two outs in the bottom of the ninth of an 18-2 game. Does it really matter what the article is titled? No matter what, it's gonna end up going to the same place in the end. It's like if you're driving from Los Angeles to Denver. Does it matter if you take a detour through Las Vegas? You're gonna get to Denver either way.  Ksy92003  ( talk ) 23:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * FWIW, when I hear kick returner used, it's as slang that can refer to both punt and kickoff returns, which are grouped under the general category "kick return" or "kick returners".  Enigma  msg! 02:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I admit that this discussion is a bit off topic. My point is that A. the EN WP doesn't serve just the Americas and we should not name articles in a way that only we would understand. B. If is we do rename this article then we should merge the punt returner into it because a punt is a kick (drop kick). BTW, sorry if I don't seem to have a personality, but I spent a year helping my uncle at his funeral home. We made a killing despite business being dead and no repeat customers (although there was that guy from Reno...).  RC-0722 communicator/kills 04:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

wait so what ur saying above, chris, is that i dont know anything about football? Elisa EX PL OS i ON talk.  21:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

New discussion about naming
I think both this article and punt returner should be merged into return specialist. And maybe have a separate article for return (American football) or return (gridiron football) describing the play. Lizard (talk) 02:39, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Lizard, your proposal to merge kickoff returner and punt returner into return specialist seems reasonable to me. It seems that Kickoff (gridiron football) and Punt (gridiron football) give the best coverage of the each play. I'd suggest notifying WikiProject American football, WikiProject College football, WikiProject National Football League, and WikiProject Canadian  football to get more input. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:03, 12 January 2016 (UTC)