Talk:Kidnapping of Noa Argamani

military service in the Navy
She was confirmed to be in israeli navy in the past by local media and her personal social media. that should not be omitted. Star72 (talk) 13:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Injured by shrapnel
In the testimony published on January 14th, she told she was injured "in her head and body by shrapnel" due to israeli airstrikes. Source : https://abc7news.com/israel-hamas-hostages-video/14330618/ Jahsensie (talk) 14:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 9 June 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lightoil (talk) 04:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Kidnapping of Noa Argamani → Noa Argamani – The article is not primarily about the kidnapping, but about her as a person who was kidnapped. One one of the paragraphs talks about her kidnapping. The rest is the negotiations, her rescue, and information about her background. Its much more of a person article than an event article. TimeEngineer (talk) 07:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Contrary to what the nominator says, this article is primarily about the kidnapping and its aftermath, and information about Argamani is background information.—Alalch E. 14:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The article is almost entirely about her kidnapping and subsequent rescue. Sure, maybe it could be renamed "Kidnapping and Rescue of Noa Argamani" — but naming it simply "Noa Argamani" suggests that she is a notable personage in her own right, when she is primarily known for having been held hostage. Selfgyrus (talk) 14:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment: Please see WP:BLP1E and WP:BIO1E. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Argamani is still known for events related to her kidnapping and rescue. Mason (talk) 17:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose The kidnapping is more than just the act of abduction. The captivity also counts and negotiations were held during that period. Killuminator (talk) 18:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose I don't think she is notable for anything other than her kidnapping - it's like Kidnapping of Jaycee Dugard Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 13:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No good reason to think Noa was held in the Al Jamal family home, so we shouldn't say she was
The article's current source for this, an Israeli news channel, cites Rami Abdul as its source. But Rami never asserted what the article (or any of the other news articles characterising his tweet in the same way) claims he said.

The actual statement by Rami is that the Al Jamal home was one of seven stormed during the Israeli operation, and that Israeli troops summarily "executed" three members of the family, including Abdullah. Nowhere does he assert that there were hostages in the home, nor does this logically follow from Rami's claims. See the original tweets at https://x.com/RamAbdu/status/1799510802778481117 and https://x.com/RamAbdu/status/1799722023519670685.

One more minor detail: I also note that Rami characterises the Al Jamal home as a "house", not a flat or apartment. But at https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-frees-4-hostages-after-8-months-captivity-in-daring-daytime-raid-in-central-gaza/ the Times of Israel, presumably reporting based on what they were told by Israeli sources, state that the hostages were found in homes in two multi-storey buildings. There is thus a contradiction between the Times's reporting and other outlets' supposition that the Al Jamal *house* mentioned by Rami was one of the ones containing hostages. It's not very strong evidence because either the Times or Rami could be mischaracterising the homes involved. But it is at least mild evidence against the Al Jamal home being one of the two that contained hostages.

(Similarly, Rami claims it was the army who raided the Al Jamal home, but the homes containing hostages were raided by Yamam, *not* by members of the Israeli army. Though, again, this is weak evidence because I doubt Palestinian witnesses would be able to distinguish the two.)

Finally, even if the Al Jamal home *was* one of the two holding hostages, there is absolutely no basis to think it was the one containing Noa, rather than the one containing the other three hostages. This detail has just been manufactured out of no evidence whatsoever.

Unless and until there is some more reliable basis to accuse the Al Jamal family of holding hostages, we shouldn't claim that they were. I'd make the edit myself, but can't because the article is protected; hopefully someone with the power to do so will do it.

ExplodingCabbage (talk) 15:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The IDF has issued this statement at https://t.me/idfofficial:
 * > IDF: Following the completion of IDF and ISA examinations of reports on the subject, it can be confirmed that Abdallah Aljamal was an operative in the Hamas terrorist organization, who held the hostages Almog Meir Jan, Andrey Kozlov, and Shlomi Ziv captive in his family home in Nuseirat.
 * > The hostages were held captive by Abdallah Aljamal and members of his family in their home. This is further evidence of the deliberate use of civilian homes and buildings by the Hamas terrorist organization to hold Israeli hostages captive in the Gaza Strip.
 * > Israeli security forces will continue to make every effort to bring the hostages home.
 * I don't necessarily take for granted that the IDF are telling the truth here, but I trust them more than any of the other sources thus far. (The mention of "examinations of reports" makes it sound like they may be relying on the same dodgy media articles that this Wikipedia article is.) Nonetheless, this is further corroboration that the Al-Jamal's were not involved in holding Noa Aragamani, specifically, so I would suggest scrubbing all mention of them from this article (even if it now may be justifiable to label them as hostage-keepers on other articles where they are more relevant). ExplodingCabbage (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Done, on the basis of IDF statements that the Al-Jamal's were involved in holding the other 3 hostages but not the subject of this article. Selfgyrus (talk) 18:39, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Mention of Stockholm Syndrome should be removed for now; Times of Israel has quietly retracted the claim we're citing
This article currently says:

> The hostages were initially reported to be in good medical condition, but subsequent reports cited medical professionals' findings that they were malnourished and exhibiting signs of Stockholm syndrome.

Our cite for this is https://www.timesofisrael.com/rescued-hostages-suffering-from-malnutrition-possibly-stockholm-syndrome/, whose title we give as "

But the cited article now has a new title, has a new URL (https://www.timesofisrael.com/rescued-hostages-said-suffering-from-malnutrition-leaning-on-each-other-for-support/), and no longer mentions Stockholm Syndrome, and nor does any version of it in the Wayback Machine. Also, the new version of the article seems to specifically disavow the previous claim (still made in this Wikipedia) article that medical professionals had suggested the hostages might have Stockholm Syndrome, instead saying:

> Noa Argamani, Shlomi Ziv, Almog Meir Jan, and Andrey Kozlov were found to be malnourished during initial medical tests at Sheba Medical Center on Saturday, but the mental influence of their captivity had yet to be established.

(bolding mine).

We should delete all mention of Stockholm Syndrome from the article unless and until there's a source that 1. isn't just repeating what the Times of Israel said and 2. still stands by the claim, which the Times of Israel doesn't. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 14:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I've removed the mention of Stockholm syndrome, and agree with you.Mason (talk) 23:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Main picture
Someone should have the decency to change her picture wich is currently a picture of disgrace that promotes Hamas deranged behavior. Put a picture of her from when she was rescued! 46.97.169.192 (talk) 13:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

So at the end of the article it is written that she said in an interview with Israel Hayom that two hostage were killed by an Airstrike, but she never said that, in this article of Israel Hayom (https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/962059/) it is written "I saw the missile entering the house; I was sure I was about to die. I thought that was it – but I survived," she recounted. The young woman said her Hamas captors frequently moved her between safe houses, at times disguising her in traditional Arab dress and allowing her outside briefly to get fresh air. Tragically, Argamani was held alongside Israelis Yossi Sharabi and Itay Svirsky, who were murdered in captivity.” The claim made by the source present in the article (Anadolu Agency) is completely false therefore it should be removed, thanks.

Claim that two hostages were killed in an Israeli airstrike
So at the end of the article it is written that she said in an interview with Israel Hayom that two hostage were killed by an Airstrike, but she never said that, in this article of Israel Hayom (https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/09/962059/) it is written "I saw the missile entering the house; I was sure I was about to die. I thought that was it – but I survived," she recounted. The young woman said her Hamas captors frequently moved her between safe houses, at times disguising her in traditional Arab dress and allowing her outside briefly to get fresh air. Tragically, Argamani was held alongside Israelis Yossi Sharabi and Itay Svirsky, who were murdered in captivity.” The claim made by the source present in the article (Anadolu Agency) is completely false therefore it should be removed, thanks. 2A00:A040:1A4:8074:B0FE:FD3D:4959:F1A5 (talk) 02:53, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Done per WP:ANADOLU (international politics) Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Garbled half-sentence introduced by recent edit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kidnapping_of_Noa_Argamani&curid=75226220&diff=1232804545&oldid=1232737637 by @FeldBum introduced this unfinished sentence, presumably by accident:

"'In an interview after her rescue, Argamani explained she was forced to'"

I don't have the privileges needed to be allowed to edit it out, but suggest FeldBum or someone else does. Looks like the information FeldBum intended to add, he _did_ in fact add later on in the article, so the only cleanup needed is deleting that unfinished sentence. Cheers! ExplodingCabbage (talk) 14:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oh, sorry, my mistake. I'll go in and fix now. Thanks for flagging @ExplodingCabbage -- FeldBum (talk) 16:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks again @ExplodingCabbage -- FeldBum (talk) 16:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)