Talk:Kike/Archive 1

Dutch connection?
Kijken is the Dutch verb for "to look (at)" and it is common to hear children in Holland say, "Kijke, Mama" usually pointing at an item of interest. Possibly an immigration of Dutch Jews led to the usage of the ethnic slur. Carrionluggage 04:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, but got a source? Tom e rTALK 06:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no source except go to Holland and listen to kids on the street on a sunny day. I have raised this with a liguist once but he said the major Dutch Jewish immigration to the US was in time sequence after the term appeared. Just happened to hit this item at random in W'pedia.  I am not sure the major Jewish Dutch immigration is central to the issue if there were some earlier, smaller ones.  Am not a linguist - just a tourist struck by hearing "Kijk, Mama" on the streets of Haarlem, Amsterdam etc. Carrionluggage 07:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * This also exists as a cognate in Yiddish itself. My mother often would say "Gib a keek" to mean "Take a look." However, in Yiddish the word rhymes with "peek" and not with "spike". --Rpresser 05:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "Kieken" is also Berlin dialect and rimes with "peek". (Berlin area was colonised by Flemish settlers). High German would be "gucken", which is a congnate of "to look". I can't imagine a connection to "kike". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.67.93 (talk) 15:03, September 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Years ago, a good friend of mine claimed it was short for 'keichel' -- or however it's spelled -- which was supposedly for 'circle' and thus slang for a (vaguely) circular food, namely a hard-boiled egg. Theory goes that Jews became known for requesting and purchasing this food item, manifestly kosher when obtained uncracked. Have no source, but I thought I should pass it along it case it matched up with anyone else's actual research on the matter. BYT 19:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Some of my Jews say that the circle is for bagels, but after reading this page I'm not convinced it even means circle! --Brianmarx (talk) 06:22, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Fanciful, but almost certainly completely bogus. An egg boiled in pork brine is not kosher, since eggshells are well-known to be porous (if it were otherwise, webos ḥaminados would never have become such a delicacy).  The "koikel for a circle vs. X as a signature for illiterate Jews" theory is, frankly, far more believable... :-p Tom e rtalk  04:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * let's try again: in the medieval ghettos, Jews were required to wear yellow circles on the clothing to designate their religious and ethnic affiliation (like most of the anti-Semitic proscriptions of the Second World War, the Germans were usually not very original and used past anti-Semitic practices in their persecution of the Jews ... eg., the yellow STAR).  The circle designation was therefore retained by Jews to donate that they were not Christians when they landed in New York, but could not explain this linguistically to the immigration clerks.♠ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.78.146‎ (talk) 18:15, August 17, 2009‎ (UTC)

Two spellings
The Interactive Dictionary of Racial Language lists this ethnic slur as having two different possible spellings. One in ky and the other in ki, due to the difference between the various Slavic langauges such as Russian, Polish and Ukrainian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.5 (talk) 18:50, January 4, 2006‎ (UTC)

Wherefore are they?
I seen many pages which mention "illiterate Jews." Jews tend to be well-educated people (e.g., doctors, lawyers, psychiatrists, &c.) I've never seen any "illiterate" Jews, so I believe that some writers are mentioning people who never, ever existed. Where are "illiterate Jews" at? Superslum 16:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It probably means illiterate in Latin, versus hebrew or cyrillic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.246.157.168 (talk) 09:40, June 22, 2006‎ (UTC)
 * Jewish immigrants were probably illiterate. — THIS IS M ESSED [[Image:R with umlaut.png]] OCKER (TALK) 01:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Is the term used on this page? If so, you can fix it. If not, then perhaps you could go to one of the three or four pages where the term is used in Wikipedia and fix it there. Here is a list of them:
 * http://www.google.com/search?q=+%22illiterate+jews%22+site:wikipedia.org/&num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&as_qdr=all&filter=0
 * Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 07:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Jews are very well-educated TODAY, especially those who've been in America for several generations. However, that wasn't always the case, especially with many Eastern European Jews who came here as immigrants a century ago. --drumwolf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.171.237 (talk) 11:17, January 5, 2007‎ (UTC)
 * Even those early immigrant Jews, while illiterate in English, were nearly always literate in Hebrew and Yiddish! --Rpresser 17:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The level of jews depends on a few things You have to remember jews were spread all over the world and that they were treated as foreigners Because of that certain laws applied only to them Some of those were that they can only reside in a certain place And also the education they got they got fro mthe country they resided in and not all of thsoe countries were very developed and education wasn't as important as it is today So it's relative and i think illiteracy should be judged country by country and not globally since each country has different subjects that country thinks is important to learn And a jewish russian may immigrate to America without knowing english (but knowing russian and hebrew/yiddish) but an american growing up in America might know just english Leat's not forget everything is relative and an immigrant would most likely won't know the country and it's costumes

"Kike" in Spanish: not a "formal" first name
"The word is also a formal first name (with a different pronounciation) in Dutch and Spanish." In Spanish, it is not a FORMAL first name. It's a variation of "Enrique," in the same way that "Hank" is a variation of "Henry" in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.166.81 (talk) 12:18, November 16, 2006‎ (UTC)

Foreign names
I'm restoring these details as I believe its very important to the informational value of the article. I've observed more than one online forum exchange where a Dutch or Spanish person who is actually named "Kike" signs on as a new user, makes a perfectly innocent post asking some question or another and then gets attacked by a mob of other posters who think that their username means that they're blatantly anti-semitic and just won't believe the new user's protests that it is it in fact their real name. Bwithh 05:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think the information should be in the introduction. It is not part of the definition. I'll move it to it's own Section. Nkras 05:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with moving the bulk of the information to its own section (I've actually given it one now), but I still believe there should be some mention in the intro. The derogatory term may be the primary way this word is known overall, but in some cultures, its not, and the intro should recognize. Bwithh 06:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Added a reference in the intro. Nkras 03:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Ari Louis
I have reverted an unsourced addition by an anon. If it is somehow notable and there is a WP:RS, feel free to readd. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Does This Even Belong In An Encylopedia?
It seems to me that this is a purely Wikionary type term, and the general consensus is that these terms belong as such. Any thoughts on this? Padishah5000 16:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems that way Also it needs to be extanded to include the origin instead of referencing films that used that word to fill it up I have no idea of the origin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.189.119 (talk) 09:12, July 21, 2007‎ (UTC)


 * Two years later... mission accomplished! Also, what general consensus?  Aaron  ►  23:44, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Removal of pop culture section
I find that the article is better now without it, good call Nandesuka. Until ( 1 == 2 )  14:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Untitled
"common ending of the personal names of Eastern European Jews"

For example Itzik, Shmulik, it's not a real end of name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolf2191 (talk • contribs) 14:57, August 15, 2007 (UTC)

Zodiac Reference?
The reference to the Zodiac is in dire need of fixing. The cited source only refers to the term Zodiac itself, NOT to the application of the term Kike to Jewish people.

The additional comments about the bible and about Christians have questionable relevance to the etymology of the term Kike. DanGayle 23:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Pictures of Kikes?
Can someone post some pictures of kikes in the main section? Thank you. --98.236.11.20 (talk) 04:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Old Arabic Language is not checked
Supposedly the Arabs would called the Jews a word similar to kike meaning 'cockroach'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.191.211.248 (talk) 03:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Only among lower class Spanish speakers you will find that spelling, being the correct one Quique. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.103.173.231 (talk) 09:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

European Origins
I don't agree with this article's description of the term's American origins. In researching the holocaust in the Ukraine, the Nazis used the term in their notices advising Jews about "resettlement". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.96.143 (talk) 02:51, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * There were no Nazi resettlements going on in 1905. Chronology is a useful tool, if you are able to understand it. OTOH, one comment claimed medieval ghetto Jews were required to wear a circle. No follow up has occurred...173.189.75.8 (talk) 13:04, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Though the connection with "keikel" seems plausible
I have a hard time believing there have ever been illiterate jews, or anyone dumb enough to confuse an X with a cross. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.77.60.53 (talk) 16:33, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that within the parenthesis, it specifically says the Latin alphabet, which is the alphabet we use now. Also, it's not that they confuse the X with a cross, they just compare it to the cross. To many cultures, the cross is a sacred symbol of Christianity, and therefore the Jewish people felt uncomfortable using an X. MrBlu (talk) 15:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The only place that the term "kikel" has ever been heard is, in honesty, among juvenilles. Usually it has been some taunt on the name Michael, such as "Bob the Slob" "Tom the Bomb" and "Michael the Keikel", regardless of the person's actual religious beliefs. Has anyone ever heard that term anywhere else? USN1977 (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I've not observed that. Indeed, the literature refutes that observation and one citation is in the next section from this one.Wzrd1 (talk) 16:26, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Derivative?
When asked what it means, a response was "You can't help being a Jew, for they are born into that race. Being a kike is a choice they make, when they screw non-Jews, as if some piece of paper made them God's chosen people" 69.143.110.110 (talk) 04:40, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll refrain from asking what you asked to get that response.Wzrd1 (talk) 07:46, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Usage
The Usage section should be removed. First it is principally a simple abridged reiteration of the etymology section, second the only significant claim is that its usage is "rare" in the U.S. and "less commonly used" in the U.K. (less commonly than WHAT remains unstated). A simple sentence in the lede is better. I'd say the term is vulgar, derogatory, and applies to ETHNIC Jews...at least that's how I learned it. The only meaning I understood was as a "them" term (ie. "not us", outsider).173.189.75.8 (talk) 12:53, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Earlier than 1904
This Google Books reference shows "kike" in print in the year 1900. --Rpresser 20:24, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

That's great. I added that reference to the sentence about first useDavid Couch (talk) 18:26, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Considering Ellis Island opened around the same year as the printing of this book, doesn't this fact cast serious doubt on the Ellis Island circle etymology from Leo Rosten? Shouldn't the article be reworded to reflect this? --Whycantwebefriends (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Racist Term
It should be understood that the word "kike" is a racist term, analogous to the word "nigger." A Jew being called a kike is as offended as a black person being called a nigger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.43.173 (talk) 12:26, September 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * We don't need that dubious analogy, but yes, it's indeed offensive. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 06:50, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2018
Please put something like the following:

Variants
"Kek" is a thinly-disguised variant of the term used by the Alt Right  100.16.223.77 (talk) 04:01, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

❌: The page states "Kek", not "kike" Nigos (t@lk • Contribs) 07:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Translation?
The word for circle in Yiddish is krayz (קרײַז), or ringlen zikh (רינגלען זיך). In hebrew the word for circle is eegul (עיגול). Someone needs to do a little more research before they post crap... untrue crap at that.Lionheart65 (talk) 16:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The kikeleh theory has been extant for several decades, appearing in print in Leo Rosten's 1968 book The Joys of Yiddish. There's been plenty of time for people to raise your objection before. --Rpresser 20:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I can only assume Lionheart65, like so many other ignorant people, is relying on either Uriel Weinreich or yiddishdictionaryonline.com for his translation. Yiddish is a massive and highly expressive language with MANY words, including "קײקל"
 * http://www.google.mn/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%D7%A7%D7%B2%D6%B7%D7%A7%D7%9C&btnG=Search
 * http://www.google.mn/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%D7%A7%D7%B2%D7%A7%D7%9C&btnG=Search
 * And search http://www.cs.uky.edu/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~raphael/dictionary.cgi for circle and be surprised.
 * Furthermore, you clearly speak NO yiddish, as רינגלען זיך is obviously a verb and hence not the type of "circle" being referenced. This is a case of שרײב א קײקל, not רינגל זיך דײן נאמען — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.170.84.2 (talk) 04:54, March 11, 2008‎ (UTC)


 * I am afraid I must agree with the above comment with the Yiddish, But for the word Kike, I have heard it said that the word Kike does in fact mean 'Christ Killer' I may be wrong but I don't think so....You see me being a child of parents who survived Dachu concentration camp and then they immigrated to the USA, I do speak a good yiddish! My upbringing allowed me to undergo a series of fights and scuffles which always lead me to my parents with the million dollar question...."Vuss iz ah Kike oon farvuss rouffen zay meer duss?" The answer allways was..."Zay rouffen deer duss farvuss zay trachtin az meer hubin daharget zayarah gutt.! zay zaanen inganzten meshuganeh goyem, zullen zay alleh brennen in drard mitt oondsareh sunnem"
 * My parents and grand parents learned the meaning of that word in Poland long before Ellis Island!  AMM YESRUEL CHRY!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shtupper (talk • contribs) 14:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well... in German "krickeln" is a colloquial term for writing badly (hardly readable like to scrawl, to scribble ). In the term "Seinen Krickel unter etwas setzen" Krickel has the meaning of signature. OTOH a lost of the "r" is not convincing, since the difference between Yiddish in German are mainly vowels. And I've never heard that krickel should mean circle. IMHO the etymology comes from "kritzeln" which comes from "kratzen" which means "to scratch". HTH :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.107.61.232 (talk) 18:27, September 19, 2010‎ (UTC)


 * While קרײַז krayz (cf. German Kreis) does indeed mean "circle", "ringlen zikh" (cf. German sich ringeln) is evidently a verb ("to circle"). Lionheart65 clearly has no idea about Yiddish, and just blindly relied on this website. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:28, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

In any case, the Yiddish language is very interesting indeed! Yes "Kreis" does indeed mean circle in German, but one can take this a bit further as well. In some regions of Germany the "little" form of a word can be formed by adding the "le" at the end. So Kreisle would be the little circle, or Buble, the little boy, or Brotle, the little [piece of] bread and so on. So considering the word "Krayz" one does not have to look to far to see the similarity. When one adds to this the lack of a strongly pronounced "r" many European have, the potentiality is perhaps there to end up with a word similar this well known derogatory form "Kike". The possibility that the term was derived from the local U.S. Jewish gentry does have some merit worth study but is certainly not conclusive. One would have to discern all the other forms of the word circle from other languages of the day and I am too lazy for that!Worldneedsplastic (talk) 11:28, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

As for etymological connection to the Ellis Island Jewish circle(vs X) signers, the commonly known yiddish and english word Kugel for a Jewish-Ashkenazi cake especially a noodle cake or quiche that used to be cooked in the common round pan https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kugel

In other languages and today
I distinctly remember seeing a scan of an old Nazi propaganda poster that described jazz as “Neger-Kike Musik”. If so that would mean the Nazis picked up the term and that it had crossed over from English into German at some point.

The use of the term by assimilated Jews to refer to unassimilated ones actually continues today, in the form of right-wing Jews such as Josh Bernstein applying it to liberal or socialist Jews who they see as politically un-American. Right Wing Watch has written about it, though I’m not sure if they are considered a RS here. 97.116.51.145 (talk) 22:00, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Allegation of primarily use by affluent naturalized American Jews against eastern European immigrant Jews
I would like to see if anyone has access to the Encyclopedia of Swearing: Social History of Oaths, Profanity, Foul Language, and Ethnic Slurs in the English Speaking World to review the only cite used for the assertion and/or implication that the term Kike was primarily used by affluent naturalized American Jews against eastern European immigrant Jews. There is plenty of documented and anecdotal evidence known to me and passed in my own family as well scholarly writing on the troublesome history such as the suppression of the movement surrounding Rabbis' march (1943) by many assimilated American Jews as at the time there was fear that the 'backward' and 'uneducated' eastern European Jews would increase antisemitism in the US and upturn the fragile safe spaces earlier Jewish immigrants had established. My concern is that the Jew on Jew angle presented in the fastest and most accessible source for information to the average person(wikipedia) takes up 1/3 of the article at a time where the slur is in public discourse re:Meyers Leonard incident. Even if this cited work(Encyclopedia of Swearing) is not a cherry picked or out of context source for the origin of this slur I feel the usage section should reflect the larger problem of actual antisemitic usage by non-Jews against Jewish people or communities. Antisemitic crime which is statistically higher than racist crime against any other minority by population in the US should reflect much higher in article factual content than the internal nonviolent issue of historical Jew on Jew prejudice even if there are multiple scholarly sources attributing the origin as firstly Jewish. I feel that at 5100 bytes this is already quite a small and poorly sourced article while N-word stands at 61,000 bytes; even if perhaps using the word kike has fallen out of favor for modern antisemites who seem to prefer to dog whistle or simply use the word Jew itself as the preferred slur. The incident above by an NBA athlete during a live stream and subsequent press and discussion may teach a new generation of antisemites a new edgy term or popularize it again. I would like to see this article ready to properly inform and perhaps not have such a large percentage of this article stand as a potential resource for victim blamers who would excuse it's use as a slur is even kosher by the Jews amongst themselves. ''Encyclopedia of Swearing: Social History of Oaths, Profanity, Foul Language, and Ethnic Slurs in the English Speaking World / Geoffrey Hughes. Armonk, N.Y. : M. E. Sharpe, c2006'' Solomon(((for now)))109.67.43.250 (talk) 17:09, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

illiteracy of jews?
By definition, a jewish man can be considered an adult only after the bar-mitzvah ceremony (at age 13) which has the main activity of reading. Hence a grown man of jewish descent cannot be both illiterate and a jew. Jewish women, while not obligated, were still mostly literate, at least in Yiddish. The claim at the beginning of the article that illiteracy was widespread among jews should be rephrased or edited out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:189:FBA:5C70:79C:BC8:DA19 (talk) 14:49, 14 March 2021 (UTC)


 * A Jew is a Jew at birth and for life; even if they choose to follow a foreign religion or none at all; by virtue of being born to a Jewish mother. The only exception to the Jewish mother begets Jewish people rule is a correctly performed religious conversion to Judaism which is also a lifetime irrevocable status for a true convert as ratified by a qualified Jewish bet-din court.  The status of being Jewish is for the entire lifetime of all Jews no matter what decisions or actions said person takes, a status exclusively/universally transferable from all Jewish mothers to all children they give birth to, so the existing children of a new convert would need to perform a religious conversion to become Jewish.  While historically literacy, meaning Torah study for males, has always been high being educated or even being adherent to the Jewish religion has no connection to having the identity of being a Jew.  When a Jewish girl turns 12 or a boy 13 they have the status bar/bat mitzvah no matter what they do, the celebration and perhaps a call up to do a Torah reading is simply an acknowledgement of their new status obligating a Jewish person under Torah law.  I believe the passage re:illiteracy is referring to immigrants to the US who were often literate at a scholarly level in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Yiddish all of which use a Babylonian/Hebrew aleph-bet but who were illiterate to the English language and it's version of the Roman alphabet.  This misunderstanding is common in the west especially North America without state religion where Christianity and similar faith based status religions which is now fragmented down to sometimes even a congregational level with many churches denying the validity of teachings or saved status of all but their own particular fragment are well understood with an assumption that the membership rules are universal.  There is no True Scotsman-like variable POV identity or status issue found in the mainstream Jewish community as it is a tribal/national/ethnic affiliation group with a national religion rather than a faith based community where group members and the broader community can question any and all adherents as to their merit in self applying title of official adherent to a given faith or more often a particular splinter group of said faith.  There is no adherent/saved=Jewish vs everyone else=wrong/punished(christian hell) isse.  An interesting curiosity to western audiences accustomed to faith based identity vs tribal religions, it has always been possible to be adherent to the mainline universalist national religion of the Jews without conversion to the status of Jew, I have understood that around 10% of the pre-Christian Roman empire, especially among the slave caste, followed a simple non-scholarly Judaism for gentiles, who have nearly all moral vs ritual laws, an uncommon faith now sometimes called Noahide (after the non-Jewish person Noah of the ark/flood story) in modern times and Ger toshav in biblical times.  I can cite as required.Solomon(for now)79.180.44.134 (talk) 12:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Most of the above is just original research which we allow to a certain extent on talk pages but not articles. There are sources for illiteracy based on self-reporting by immigrants at Ellis Island, eg and the ''Encyclopedia of Swearing" can be read here.  Doug Weller  talk 14:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Doug, nice work helping find a source for the Encyclopedia of Swearing cite, sadly Google cuts it off though after a few pages into topic(I avoid anything Google) but it appears to be a work with basic in text citations and suitable for citation on WP satisfying my talk topic above. As you say we have always permitted OR and uncited assertions and disagreement in talk, though I stated I can(and do below at your request) cite any of what I typed.  For now it is enough to say that the PBS cite below provides that your cite on illiteracy is not qualified and with that understanding only speaks to English literacy as it is re:imigration @ellis island along with Italians and others.   these should satisfy curiosity on the assertions I made above, the judiasm for gentiles is not important to the article and simply a curiosity for people to do their own research if they like. As for the WP article connected to this talk page, this  is a far better write up than the current article and while the author uses every single cite(wp circular citing issue) it still provides further cites to do a much better job of a full rewrite from the sad state this article stands at currently. Solomon(for now)109.67.29.106 (talk) 19:24, 20 March 2021 (UTC)


 * This article needs work. The Encyclopedia says "The earliest term to develop in America was kike, recorded in the 1880s. As Allen explains, the etymology is much disputed (1983, 121—23), but the picturesque explanation advanced by Leo Rosten in The joys of Yiddish (1968) seems to be the most plausible. According to Rosten, the root is kike/, the Yiddish word for a circle, the symbol used by Jewish immigrants, many of whom were illiterate, when signing their papers at Ellis Island, instead of the usual X, a Christian symbol. Consequently, immigration officers began to refer to such a person as a kike/, later abbreviated to kike. Rosten’s authority is Philip Cowcn, whom he styles “the dean of immigration inspectors” (180). Significantly, the term was first used by assimilated American German Jews to disparage “uncouth Jewish immigrants from Russia or Eastern Europe” (The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang 1997). R. Glanz in his study The jew in Tolklore (1904-1905) noted that “No longer is it limited to the Russian Jew. Noble Bavarian hurled the epithet at equally noble Prussian and Swabian . .. and we have heard of ‘kike’ goyim too” (205). Now used disparagingly of Jews in general, the term has remained largely confined to American usage." Doug Weller  talk 20:08, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "Philip Cowcn" (apparent OCR error) is Philip Cowen (1854-1943) (paywalled NYTimes obit, papers and short bio at Center for Jewish History). Cowen should be mentioned as Rosten's source, and definitely deserves a Wikipedia article. The Rosten attribution needs a better citation. In my The New Joys of Yiddish - Completely Updated (first paperback edition 2001) the article on kike is pp 176-178: "[] The word kike was born on Ellis Island [] (I obtained this information through the courtesy of Stephen Birmingham, who shared with me a letter sent to him by Mr. Sidney Berry. Mr. Berry's authority for his illuminating observation was the late Philip Cowen, 'dean of immigration inspectors' at Ellis Island, later the founder and first editor of The American Hebrew. [then follows a story about East Side Jewish storekeepers, illiterate in English, who checked off payments with a kikeleh because the X is associated with Christian persecutors]" with a note by the revising editor Lawrence Bush:"Uriel Weinreich, in his authoritative Modern English-Yiddish Yiddish-English Dictionary (1968), does not include kikel (or kaykl) in his definitions for 'circle' (krayz or rod). Kikelen, or kayklen, means 'to roll'. Rosten's conclusions about the derivation of kike seem doubtful."Btw someone accidentally this sentence in the article: Referring to the e stated that: This is the downside of edit protection: articles get frozen in a broken state and never fixed.--2.204.227.159 (talk) 08:17, 2 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Doug, it has been a while since I last checked the article and it is now protected I made the heading below to continue if you like. As for universal literacy(though Hebrew not English) https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/jewish-literacy-as-the-road-to

Since it is now protected.....
I propose several edits to fix this page, the protects prevent me(15 year IP editor) from coming back now several months after the Meyers Leonard incident and my notes in talk above on repairing a complete focus in the only two sections exclusively on the earliest in-group etymology and now nothing except the word slur in the first sentence. The article never explains why it is a hate word or how it is now mainly used by anti-semites and only explains it's use between Jews in the early 20th century, there is a digest of a Jewish travel guide quote, a quote of the original German and a translation of that quote to english which again is only an example of it's early Jew vs Jew and not as a slur form out-group. For an encyclopedic article there is nothing mentioned about the current usage of the slur or it's use for the last 80 years as an antisemitic hate term almost exclusively used by non-Jews. I feel that there should also be at least passing mention of older slurs like the slang 'sheeny' and 'Christ-killer' https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sheeny https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Christ-killer It is very important to explain as is done in the N-word article the difference between in-group and out-group(antisemitic) modern usage and preference of quickly changing meme Dog whistle (politics) over easy to identify and censure slur words, and use of the word also as a way to slur a non-Jew with the perceived negative comparison to Jews. The article for the N-word does an excellent job as a guidance for how this article should appear in a finished form. Due to its current pejorative and vulgar nature perhaps also directing linking K-word to this article would be useful as it currently links to a disambiguation page along with words like Karen(misogynistic meme slur). Edited slurs with asterisks to get past WP offensive word filter

Cited examples of use and perception since WW-II where the article should spend at least 50% of its wordcount on:

1- Esquire article re:harris poll in the US that in 2008 'k**e' along with 'Fa**ot' was considered extremely-offensive at 53% vs N-word at 39% https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a4579/slurs-0608/

2- This article reports 'k*ke' among the worst slurs https://www.historynet.com/na-all-about-that-troublesome-n-word.htm

3- As does this law review in Reason. https://reason.com/volokh/2021/05/03/rutgers-law-students-calling-for-a-policy-on-students-and-faculty-quoting-slurs-from-court-cases/

4- Slate re:Richard Nixon 1960s antisemitic use of K**e in Whitehouse tapes https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2002/03/nixon-s-jewish-problem-again.html

5- Current use of k**e both 4th grade and recent, Israeli Newspaper English edition https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/i-hadn-t-been-called-a-kike-in-years-trump-changed-that-1.5446176

6- Meyers Leonard 2020 incident and word background https://www.scotsman.com/sport/other-sport/what-did-meyers-leonard-say-meaning-of-deeply-offensive-anti-semitic-slur-used-by-miami-heat-player-3160799

7- use of k**e to equate and use interchangeably for communist sympathizer in 1950s red scare https://www.thejc.com/culture/features/hunting-communists-they-were-really-after-jews-1.10702

8- 1980s White Aryan Resistance(WAR) leader John Metzger son of KKK leader Tom Metzger, later found to be culpable in the murder of an Ethiopian immigrant, utters k**e as a slur as he assaults the host and guests including a Jewish rabbi on TV talk show https://timesofsandiego.com/life/2020/11/10/tom-metzger-dies-at-82-notorious-kkk-boss-supremacist-who-ran-for-congress/

9- https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1988/11/04/geraldo-rivera-injured-in-melee-during-taping/14166cd2-bc3d-4871-9a97-2dc3a23bc2f3/ 109.64.54.23 (talk) 07:53, 27 July 2021 (UTC)Solomon(for now)

10- https://www.aclu.org/blog/capital-punishment/texas-plans-execute-jewish-man-denied-fair-trial-anti-semitic-judge Anti Semite Texas judge calls Jewish prisoner 'G*da*n K***' and F****** Jew" then sentences prison escapee to death October 4, 2019 Solomon(for now)109.65.33.199 (talk) 14:37, 12 October 2021 (UTC)