Talk:Kiliaen van Rensselaer (merchant)

Requested move
A lowercase van seems to be the Dutch standard, and is also in use in the English Wikipedia everywhere except the New Netherland bios. See for instance List of people from the Dutch Golden Age, Category:History of the Netherlands. &mdash; Laura Scudder &#9742;  19:49, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support Satyadasa 20:48, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. JFW | T@lk  17:10, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments
 * Page moved. Eugene van der Pijll 18:21, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Dates
Why aren't the dates the same as on Find-A-Grave? Lincher 04:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no idea where our particular dates came from. I can't find any reliable sources that claim to know his birth year exactly, so that should definitely have a circa on it.
 * Notice that the dates listed on that page and the dates on the marker bear no relation to eachother: the marker lists no birth date and a burial date 7 October 1643 (at this point I believe the Julian and Gregorian calendars were still only ten days off from eachother). &mdash; Laura Scudder &#9742; 21:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Fixed dates
Being the notes say there is a discrepancy in the dates it only makes sense to be up front about it. An encyclopaedia should be factual - fact is- there is a discrepancy. throughout the article, other than the intro, he only needs to die one time. Sorry I am a bit upset after relying on dates as if they were concrete. A person should not have to metaphorically read a whole phone-book to get a number out of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JGVR (talk • contribs) 06:11, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Rewrite is now live
For all those interested, I have copied over a rewrite from my userspace to replace the version previously listed. Any issues, please comment here and let me know on my talk page. Much of the new article is sourced from the Van Rensselaer Bowier Manuscripts, the best source available about Kiliaen, his children, and the founding of Rensselaerswyck. Much of the content of this source is primary and later translated by the publisher of the work.  upstate NYer formerly wadester16 21:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Clarification tags
Did some research on the clarification tags:
 * 1) Spelling of Hillegonda: updated to note another spelling and ref switched.
 * 2) Niece of his uncle: Based on this, Anna van Wely was daughter of Johannes Van Wely and Eleanor Haeckens. Based on that, Johannes Van Wely must be the brother of Jan Van Wely. I don't have a source that explicitly connects the Van Wely's and Van Rensselaer's, but I'm thinking that the closest that Wolfert can be is Kiliaen's mother's sister's husband. Anna would be the separated by marraige: Kiliaen → Maria Pafreat (Kiliaen's mother) → Maria's sister → Jan Van Wely (married to Maria's sister) → Johannes Van Wely (brother of Jan) → Anna van Wely (dauther of Johannes). What would this be? Second cousin by marriage? It's not really close. Can you think of another connection other than this? Can add note to this if you think it's prudent.  upstate NYer  23:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking that if we can't prove a connection between van Rensselaer and van Biljer, we should probably remove the niece/uncle wording altogether. I'm also wondering if Jan is just a shortening of Johannes and they're actually the same person, but that's just speculation.  For now, I'll change it to just mention the names, much like the link you mentioned above, and if further info is found, it can always be put back in. —RobinHood70 (talk • contribs) 02:24, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Amsterdam City Archive
Hallo UpstateNY. Im very astonished about your reverts. It seems to me you are misleading the reader. Some of this article looks like a mystification. There no direct sources more reliable than the marriage, and burial certificates from the Amsterdam City Archive. The rest is interpretation. You cant be a member of the family, than you would have known for fifty years that:
 * Van Renselaer (sic!) mentions in both his wedding certificates he is from HASSELT (Overijssel). It was mentioned already in 1949 he is not from Nijkerk. Nijkerk is were his sister lived and his father and uncle were buried.
 * Your American sources can't be more reliable than the Amsterdam City Archive. This is arrogant. It cant be true that information in Dutch is not reliable.
 * Van Renselaer died in october 1643 and was buried in the Old Church. There is no doubt, he was buried there. Within a year (1644) his widow and the children started to quarrel ....
 * Mrs J. Venema wrote a new new book on Rensselaer. I have not read it yet; it looks like an English translation will be published next week? It must be possible to ask her advice. She was walking around in the City Archives many times. She might like the attention here. No doubt it will be possible to add some new references in the near future.
 * Van Renselaer and Jacques l'Hermite were neigbors and brothers-in-law, related by their wifes, but also compagnons. Both were very interested gold and silver from South America. After the death of l'Hermite it seems Van Renselaer became more interested in tobacco and furs. He send stock (cows and horses) and a brewer to Nieuw Nederland. As a patroon he dealt with a Van Twiller and the merchant Samuel Blommaert and the scientist Joannes de Laet. I would be very surprised if Venema does not mention them in her book. The Blommaert family did go along well with the Renselaers, until 1680, when the case on Rensselaerswijck was juridically solved. It not easy to find out or describe what exactly happened in those years.
 * Fourth. How do you know his father was usually not at home and both his parents were from Amsterdam? I dont think that is true. They were both from Nijkerk, and his father became a schepen in Hasselt in 1586. By the way: what is a homemaker and who told you?
 * It seems to me the English Wikipedia or some Wikipedians do accept referenced lies (biking backwards as they prefer refs from before the internet era) and do not prefer referenced truth. This is quit often the case and hard to accept. What is your problem? These people died 350 years ago. These are primary sources, but it is not a new theory, but these are free genealogical facts.
 * Since you are rather stubborn, and might never find a sentence in a record in City Archive that mentions the cause of his death, only accept your own view and refs I will change my attitude and mainly publish on the Dutch page in all quietness. Then you can translate from there. His life in connection with l'Hermite and the above mentioned merchants might give a more detailed view on his life and the questionable activities of the West India Company.
 * I dont like the algebra-like references, which has in my point of view no other goal than excluding all kind of other users. Taksen (talk) 06:39, 16 September 2010 (UTC)Taco Tichelaar (talk) 07:16, 16 September 2010 (UTC)Taksen (talk) 07:54, 16 September 2010 (UTC).Taksen (talk) 06:50, 17 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, Taksen. Your points are well taken. My main issues are the sources: the websites, when you do offer them up, don't seem all that reliable, just by the look. Ref #6 lacks a link, and I don't even know what it means. While we usually trust off-line sources, I'd at least like to see a scan or photo just to be sure. Also, considering http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/sten009monu03_01/sten009monu03_01_0047.php ←this link, nothing explicit is stated about his death date, only that he was alive 1586-1643. What I'm really looking for is a definitive source that says something like, "He died of a stroke in 1643". Because sources disagree on numerous things, I noted that in the notes section (specifically Notes a, b); these are some serious sources, and they don't even agree. Here at Wikipedia, we don't base off primary sources (e.g., the death certificates). While I would normally bend the rules as you suggest, we have a better option. Which brings up my next point: let's agree to wait to change anything until Janny's book comes out. That would make every disagreement moot because I think we can both agree that her biography will be the definitive "answer" from a very experienced New Netherland scholar. I have actually been in contact with her multiple times and she has definitely seen this article. She informed me months ago of her latest endeavor and I planned on updating this once the publication came out. One thing to note, though, is that it's surprising that his birth and death years aren't known better since many researchers have written about him (Van Laer, for example). And just because the plaque on the column in the church says he was buried on a given date doesn't mean that the plaque is original. And, if that really was his burial date, there's no guarantee he even died around then. No basis behind those claims, but the potential, unfortunately, can't be refuted. As for my Dutch, I don't speak Dutch, but the translator built into Google Chrome is surprisingly good, so I knew precisely what your sources were talking about. In the future, here are some ettiquette tips for adding sources and information. First off, don't put spaces between references like I just did here. Put them together,  right after the statement, with no spaces. Second, try using the cite web template so that your formatting is complete, like this:   If you want to refer to a source multiple times, name the original callout like this:    and call it the next time you want to use it like this:   . Third, for relatively minor statements, don't say "since this source says so", like you did with, "Kiliaen van Rensselaer was from Hasselt as both his marriage cerfiticates mention." Lastly, only tell the reader what is, not was is not. I know you were trying to make a point, but don't include lines like, "and not Nijkerk, Gelderland" (incidentally, that statement would be within em dashes if it were to stay). I'm going to revert back to my last version (it's a cleaner read for the time being) and we can update the article together once I have the opportunity to buy the book. Let me know if you have further questions or concerns.  upstate  NYer  21:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey UpstateNYer. Nice article, but i was confused by the multiple death dates. This discussion here confuses me even further. While Taksen certainly couldve worded himself better, he does provide clear evidence for the death date. Im talking about this link: . The dutch cities generally kept very accurate records of every marriage and death. This was especially true for the churches - anyone who was a member of the church would have been recorded when he/she married or died. And Rensselaer must have been member of the church, because he was a director of the WIC, and only members of the official church were allowed to have such high positions. Now, about these records; most city records have survived the passage of time and are still available for study. The Amsterdam city archive is one such example. These marriage and death records arent church plaques - theyre written down in books. While i cant see the exact scan (seeing it requires a payment), i can see from the thumbnail that Rensselaer's death notition is written in a book. Dont you realise that this source is as close as you can get to the truth? Your objection that this is a primary source seems silly and almost obstinate to me. It seems rather obvious to me that the sources who claim he died in 1643 based themselves upon this source, because this is obviously a primary source for anyone studying Rensselaer. The 4 sources that mention other dates were all written over a century ago (and i couldnt help but notice that they were all 4 written in the space of 20 years - 3 of the sources in 3 years time - could it be that they borrowed these dates from one-another?). What I'm really looking for is a definitive source that says something like, "He died of a stroke in 1643". The city archive link is pretty much that. Omegastar (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that in practice, primary sources are you best place to go, however we have rules against that here. Everything you said is agreeable, however in this instance, Janny's book will be coming out within weeks. So there will be a definitive answer that was almost certainly based on these files you reference. And she has seen, read, and translated them for us. So there will be no debate once the book comes out. This article has been in this state for over a year and a half now; a couple more weeks won't hurt. Once the book is out, you and Taksen can begin working on the article with that source in hand. If you need some consultation, I am more than willing to help.


 * Incidentally, the link you give offers an incorrect spelling of Rensselear's name, and I don't say this as a misunderstanding of spelling variations of his last name: it's in fact his first name that's spelled wrong. And while the books referenced in the article may be old, that doesn't take away their credibility. Van Laer was the Janny Venema of 100 years ago. He did exactly the same thing she does now. Plus, he was 100 years closer to the source. You may be right about the other sources, but then again, Hudson sailed in 1609 and the tricentennial was in 1909; people were excited about the anniversay (just like in 2009) and more publications probably came out in advance of that celebration.  upstate NYer  20:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see that you translate Dutch articles into English. Would you be willing to translate Albany, New York in Dutch for the Dutch Wikipedia?  upstate NYer  21:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. The book will have the final say :) As for your translation request; right now im rather busy with other stuff - i havent translated alot these past months. Ive also never translated from English to the Dutch wikipedia before. Any reason why you want this article translated in dutch? Omegastar (talk) 12:58, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Albany's one of the more important cities that began in New Netherland. It has a strong Dutch past and is something I think the Dutch Wikipedia could benefit from having a full overview of. Just a suggestion.  upstate NYer  23:35, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, while ive not translated from English to Dutch before, i could give it a try. Ill put it on my to-do list. Omegastar (talk) 11:27, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

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