Talk:Killing of Brian Deneke

You can not say murdered
This is an opinion, not the facts. The court ruled it was not murder, agree or disagree this is supposed to be an encyclopedia which means facts not opinions.


 * Hi, the original commenter overstepped his/her bounds in defending Dustin Camp. (Some wikipedians just love defending biographical subjects, even known killers).  The fact is that they Brian Deneke article is governed by the same policies as the rest of wikipedia: you can say "murder" as long as you can find a verifiable source that describes the act as such.  No, a court finding does not retroactively create an objective truth.  The court's findings can be contested, they just can't be denied.  Greg Comlish (talk) 02:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The crime of "voluntary vehicular manslaughter" does not exist in the UK (even, for all I know, outside of the US). Manslaughter under UK law (and dare I say, most countries law) implies the involuntary action of killing a human being. As Wiki is a global encyclopaedia, not a US-centric one, the term murder is accurate. Panzer71 (talk) 13:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * um, a guy mowed down another guy with his car, completely intentionally. so that's murder. 209.33.7.28 (talk) 04:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've moved the article to "Death of Brian Deneke," per the above discussion. The court did not find that this was a murder, and for us to describe it so is a personal opinion. "Manslaughter of Brian Deneke" might have worked as an alternative title, but I note the comment above issues with terminology.


 * Happy to discuss further if required. -- Euryalus (talk) 04:32, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

"I bet he liked that"
Why isn't Camp still in prison? Didn't he, you know, murder a person? Sorry if I seem old fashioned... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.68.17.141 (talk • contribs) 16:14, March 15, 2007


 * He was never convicted of Murder so no he did not "murder" a person, he killed someone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.224.228 (talk) 23:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * well, lets just combine hitlers bio with the zionist movement. same thing. KEEP EM SEPERATED   and it was not his MURDER [and yes, it was a murder regardless of what a prosecuter decided was right]but the movement that followed his death that makes him relevent  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.93.134.37 (talk) 15:59, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

"icon??"
he's just some guy that died. I think the "Icon" moniker is unencyclopedic. Anyone wanna change since I'm just a unregistered doof? 69.247.73.12 19:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * whoever wrote this is a fagot. he pretty much
 * is an icon. almost every punk knows who he was
 * and how he died so fuck you.
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.248.5 (talk • contribs) 23:02, May 30, 2007


 * kind of ironic that someone who is pro punk uses epitats like fag and vulgarity such as fuck you
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.224.228 (talk • contribs) 23:43, September 9, 2007

Don't forget, and it needs to be linked in here to give the article more substance, this story was featured on A&E TV, in an episode of City Confidential. If I knew how to correctly include this tidbit in the main article, I would. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.179.176.42 (talk) 17:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal
Per the discussion at Talk:Dustin Camp, I think these two articles should be merged into a new article on the murder and surrounding events, rather than having two articles on individuals notable only for the event. Feel free to discuss. Powers T 17:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge - Both individuals are notable for the event alone. The article should be Homicide of Dustin Camp or similar. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ambivalent - In principle I would support a merger, but I would like to see any merger retain all the information of both articles and I would prefer if the merger was performed by somebody familiar with the articles. For instance, I think it's imperative that the primary merging editor be able to distinguish between the victim, Brian Deneke, and the killer, Dustin Camp.  Greg Comlish (talk) 19:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would also prefer that he be able to spell "homicide". ;)  Powers T 19:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge - Does not have enough notability on its own merits.
 * PS: Homicide of Dustin Camp makes it read that Dustin Camp was killed. Homicide of Brian Deneke would be grammatically correct, unless someone murdered Camp too? ~ WikiDon (talk) 09:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the Dustin Camp page should be integrated into this one and redirect to "Brian Deneke". Brian Deneke has become more notable posthumously and is the subject of several songs named after him, while Dustin Camp is probably much less known or sought after. On a related note, I am concerned about "Mdsummermsw"'s history of attempting to merge/delete this page. They seem to have some sort of ulterior motive. I found this page while looking for an entry from "Brian Deneke" the person, and that demonstrates the necessity for the this page. 99.130.118.159 (talk) 01:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I am uncertain where you think I tried to delete this article, as I haven't gone with a db, prod or AfD at any point. I do believe that the article should be merged with Dustin Camp and renamed. This article and the Dustin Camp article are not about the individuals: they are about one event and the article should be named as such. Yes, I botched it above. It should be Homicide of Brian Deneke or something similar. (Note: the misspelling of "Homicide" is the kind of error I usually make. Flipping the killer and the vic is a bigger error and one I wholly own.) Yeah, there are songs and such, but they're all about the homicide. Were it not for that one event, these two articles would not exist in any form. By all means, Brian Deneke, Dustin Camp and whatever we call it should exist, but two of those should be redirects to the third. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 17:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Anti-merger They may seem unnotable to those outside of the community in Amarillo, however in that area Brian Deneke was very notable he helped organize a lot and was friends to us all. Even if you where not a Punk you more than likely either knew him or knew of him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.65.83.143 (talk • contribs) 06:18, 1 December 2008
 * You are missing the point. Deneke was notable (based on wikipedia's use of the term) for one event, and one event only: his death. Outside of that event, neither he nor Camp received any press coverage. As a result, Deneke and Camp aren't notable, the Homicide of Brian Deneke is notable. That you (and certainly others) knew either of them or now know of them is moot. The only reliable sources for either article discuss the homicide and/or Deneke/Camp in relation to it. Barring any further discussion here, I will merge these articles soon. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Cliques
Somebody was whining about the use of the word clique. I replaced it because I didn't think it described the scale of the social divisions in Amarillo. However, the word is otherwise appropriate. This was the term used in the MTV Criminal documentary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greg Comlish (talk • contribs) 14:54, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, seems I was the only one who said something about that. I didn't object the word though, I was just asking for more references to the section; by which I still stand. The section is basically about what Punks (the clique/subculture/...) think about the event and I didn't find it all supported in the sources I saw (I didn't see the MTV documentary, among others) - so it needs additional sources.


 * For me (not being a native speaker) "clique" is a word that is used for a closer circle of friends - which is fine, but there were effects beyond the circle of Deneke's friends and beyond the city. Averell (talk) 12:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Article issues
User:Magnius has slabbed like half of all available issues on the article (inluding, for some reason wikify, which I removed). While some of the issues may apply, I would like to hear what the problems are, so that we can fix it. Also, apart from one section, the article doesn't seem to be unbalanced and is mostly close to the available sources. Also, instead of adding one billion fact tags, you may as well tag the paragraph that's lacking... Averell (talk) 10:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * User:Magnius is indiscriminately adding tags to the article. The proliferation of  tags is egregious.  The information is already in the numerous references contained within the same paragraph.  Placing footnotes after every single declarative sentence only detracts from the article.  Greg Comlish (talk) 16:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I've invited Magnius to make his case here, to which he reacted by blanking his talk page. So I'm fine with removing the big blob of tags. However, that doesn't mean that we don't need any more rewriting/sources - especially in regard to the viewpoints expressed in the article. Averell (talk) 09:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

significance?
seems like backhanded whining about "jocks" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.17.141 (talk) 04:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality issues
Tagged with NPOV because -- Powers T 21:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * choice of details included appear biased against the subject (the "I'm a ninja" quotation, for example, which was testified to but I'm not sure we can treat it as fact)
 * "The killing attracted significant media attention and raised questions about the tolerance of Amarillo," appears biased (implying that the killing was intolerant in nature) without further explanation


 * The title of the NYTimes article is "After a Murder Trial, Amarillo Asks, 'Is This a Tolerant Place?'" which I believe by itself justifies both the claim that the killing raised questions about the tolerance of Amarillo as well as the claim that the killing attracted significant media attention.


 * As for the choice of details, the quote was included because it has become Mr. Camp's most iconic quotation. Please feel free to add other details if you think they give a more balanced perspective please feel free to elaborate on the specifics that are excluded, but the quote is credible. Greg Comlish (talk) 21:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear what you mean by "most iconic". Does he have other, less iconic quotations?  What makes it iconic?  Powers T 22:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The "ninja in my caddy" quotation is routinely cited in the media as a distillation of Mr. Camp's motivations and his casual attitude during the killing. In many ways the frank (if ill-advised) words have come to define Mr. Camp.  Hence they are iconic. Greg Comlish (talk) 22:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have any reliable sources that say as much? Powers T 14:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * None of my sources explicitly use the word iconic, but neither does the wikipedia article. Greg Comlish (talk) 22:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Additionally, Texas True Crime has the following quote (emphasis mine): "The prosecution would spend much of its time chipping away at Clark's assertions: For instance, testimony suggested that was another boy, John King, not Brian Deneke, who had struck Dustin's friend in the parking lot. Additionally, Dustin's cavalier comment -- 'I'm a ninja in my caddy' hardly reflected the state of mind of a panicked teenager trying to save a friend's life."Greg Comlish (talk) 22:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I reworded the first paragraph to address your skepticism regarding Camp's Ninja Quote. If you have any tangible POV complaints please state them but I would discourage you from asserting that the article has POV issues on the basis of unverified suspicions alone.  Greg Comlish (talk) 23:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The article has improved, as I noticed as I was writing a reply here. I'm not sure what you mean by "tangible" but I think my concerns are legitimate.  I'm glad they're being addressed.  With biographies of living persons, it's essential we remain as neutral as possible.  I still think the "tolerance" statement could use some elaboration, but that's less of a neutrality issue now.  I do note, however, that some of my concerns were cleared up simply by reading more about the case; the article needs to include enough detail that its neutrality is clear without resorting to other sources for elaboration.  Powers T 23:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Which details do you believe need to be added to make the neutrality clearer? Greg Comlish (talk) 15:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * As of the current state of the article, the main detail missing is what the "intolerance" line means. How does this case bring the city's tolerance into question?  I know the answer due to reading some news articles but there's zero indication in this encyclopedia article.  Without that detail, it looks like a meaningless accusation.  Powers T 14:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I also have significant notability concerns; this seems to fall under WP:BLP1E here but I'm not sure. Powers T 23:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't believe WP:BLP1E is relevant. Dustin Camp's celebrity may have began in a singular event, but his notoriety has been extended several times due to his ongoing confrontations and triumps with the legal system.  Camp is famous for 1)the homicide 2) the trial in which the defense flagrantly demonized the victim and argued that Deneke's punk lifestyle had "consequences" 3) Camp's extraordinary sentence for homicide was probation 4) that Camp has subsequently violated the terms of his probation multiple times 5) then triumphantly appealed prison sentences based on his probation violations.  Greg Comlish (talk) 15:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's all one event, though. Powers T 14:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I count five.Greg Comlish (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think a plain reading of WP:BLP1E supports an interpretation that counts a homicide and the subsequent trial as two separate events. Powers T 17:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Had Camp simply been convicted and given a standard sentence, then I believe you could argue the trial is a non-event and that the trial coverage was really just ongoing coverage of the original crime. This is not the case. Camp's unlikely string of successes with the Texas legal system are notable by their own right. Camp has become a poster child mocking "Texas Justice". Greg Comlish (talk) 19:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, as I said, BLP1E may or may not apply. In any case, if what you say is true, then the article needs to say that.  Right now, I see an article about some guy who committed murder, and it looks like any number of other very similar murders, and there's very little in the article (aside from "The killing attracted significant media attention and raised questions about the tolerance of Amarillo," which is almost devoid of useful content) to indicate why this particular case is notable.  Just saying "it's notable" isn't enough.  Powers T 22:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've already explicitly delineated the reasons for notability. Please see the enumerated reasons in my previous comments.  I don't know if there are "any number" of articles about killers who keep beating the rap, but to the extent that there are it only reinforces the argument that this article is entirely consistent with Wikipedia's standards for Notability.  I agree that there are improvements to be made to the article.  I would hope that you would help me make the article better through constructive work on the article, rather than stalling the article with a never-ending stream of shifting bureaucratic objections.  Greg Comlish (talk) 23:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Why would I bother trying to improve an article that I don't think meets our notability requirements? All I'm trying to do is get you to demonstrate that notability to me, because my own investigations haven't revealed much.  I don't know what you mean about "killers who keep beating the rap", because this article doesn't say Camp beat the rap.  In fact, it says he was found guilty, sentenced to probation, and later sentenced on another charge to prison time.  That's not beating the rap, that's getting punished, just like thousands of other killers.  If the notability claim is based on the "questions about the tolerance of Amarillo," then that aspect should be highlighted, not left to a vague penultimate sentence.  Powers T 14:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * From WP:N "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable." Greg Comlish (talk) 15:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion
Hello, I came because someone here requested a third opinion on the conflict. I read the talk page and the article(s), though I didn't have prior knowledge of the case. The discussion seems to be very civil here, which is a good sign.

About the article: It appears to me that the information given here is surely noteable. The case seems to have had some impact (especially in the punk community) and the treatment of Camp has spawned strong reactions.

Still, I'm unsure if Dustin Camp is noteable as a person. He's only famous for being the murder of Brian Deneke, and for the legal cases resulting from that. Also the fact that he received a lenient sentence and violated parole is only noteable in the context of the homicide.

As a matter of fact, I have the same reservations about Brian Deneke - the guy is only famous for being murdered; I don't see evidence that he is would be noteworthy as a musician (I may be wrong about that, but at least there is no evidence in the Wikipedia article).

My opinion is that all information from these articles could be folded into an article like "Murder of Brian Deneke" without losing anything (see Murder of Meredith Kercher for an example). That article could cover all aspects of the murder without all parties having their "own" Wikipedia entry (you can still have redirects from "Brian Deneke" and "Dustin Camp"). That approach would also be in line with WP:BLP1E - cover the event, not the person. Averell (talk) 19:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input, Averell. I think the solution you propose would alleviate most of my concerns.  Powers T 19:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the article???
You can't even look at it now - it only downloads a file that, when viewed with Notepad, looks like an image or exec file. Rjhenn (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Page move/style
I've undid the attempt to "move" this page back to "Brian Deneke". I've also remwritten some "biography style" paragraphs in the lead.

In the merge discussion (archived above) it was decided to merge all the relevant articles (here) into an article about the event. This was done because neither Brian Deneke nor Dustin camp would be notable without the killing. Thus I think that this page should remain an article about the crime and not turn into just a biography of Brian Deneke.

If you disagree feel free to discuss it here, but please do so before jumping into action. Averell (talk) 23:39, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

John Marmaduke
John Marmaduke, CEO of Hastings Entertainment (based in Amarillo), funded a lot of Camp's defense. I don't know what their relationship was, but it's worth noting I think.

This led to a bit of a backlash against Hastings back then, where many sympathetic / outraged locals engaged in lots of shoplifting and property destruction at the two local Hastings, and may or may not have had something to do with the fire bomb that got dropped through the video return slot that opened into the store.

I was in Amarillo back then, and often hung out at that IHOP, and went to the underground shows and stuff. That whole thing was severely messed up. 209.33.7.28 (talk) 04:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation
How is Deneke pronounced?--31.17.157.239 (talk) 16:28, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

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Dustin Camp article?
I came here looking for information specifically about Dustin Camp, and didn't get it. Make of that what you will. Why not a separate article for Dustin Camp? He got away with murder and a part of his life is portrayed in a major motion picture, I'd say that's pretty noteworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.201.246.199 (talk) 17:12, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Songs
I removed all songs from the respective sections where the band did not already have their own Wikipedia page. The last entry was from a band/album for which the only reference was a last.fm entry that explained that there they have no further information about the song. I don't think we need to include _every_ song about this, no matter how obscure the artist. Averell (talk) 16:34, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Title
I don’t understand why this article does not have the title of “The Murder of Brian Deneke” at the top. “The Death of Brian Deneke” is not as concise and sounds more mysterious.

The facts of the case are as follows:

In Texas in late 1997, a 19 year old punk rocker by the name of Brian Deneke was in a fist fight that involved a group of teenagers who identified as “preps” and “jocks” and a group of teens who identified as “punk rockers”. During the fight, a car being driven by a 17 year old football player named Dustin Camp deliberately ran over Deneke while yelling “I’m a ninja in my Caddy” killing him, and left him to die on the pavement.

Camp was originally charged with first degree murder, and demonstrations occurred around Texas and the United States. Camp was convicted of voluntary manslaughter by a jury. He was sentenced to 10 years of probation and a fine of $10,000 which was eventually dropped. But he wound up serving five years in prison for parole violations.

What are other people’s thoughts on this? Even though Camp was not convicted of murder, he certainly committed murder in the case of Brian Deneke. I believe the title of this article should be changed to reflect the cause of death. Miss E Kelly 01:37, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There's a similar (very brief) conversation at the top of this page, and I guess the same argument holds now as then: the court outcome was that this was manslaughter, not murder. An encyclopedia article cannot substitute its own opinion for that of the courts; nor per WP:BLP can we declare that the perpetrator is a murderer when the court did not make that finding.


 * Like you I disagree with the jury's decision, but it is what it is in terms of the historical record of events. I'd compare it with Murder of Sophie Lancaster, which is titled that way because that's what the culprits were actually convicted for.-- Euryalus (talk) 01:57, 27 September 2021 (UTC)