Talk:Killing of David Ben Avraham

Please check neutrality if you have time
Just wanted to drop a note here to ask for others to check the accuracy and neutrality of the article. It is nominated for DYK and will need to be neutral and without dispute tags to run. Some editors who may have expertise in this area. . Thank you in advance. Bruxton (talk) 16:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the ping. The introductory sentence should not be separated into its own paragraph: MOS:OPEN recommends starting the article with a paragraph, MOS:LEAD (introduction) suggests that the paragraphs should be "well-composed" (and a single-sentence paragraph is not a well-composed paragraph), and MOS:PARA recommends minimizing the number of single-sentence paragraphs. The second paragraph of the lead breaks up the narrative of what happened in the event and creates too strong of a suggestion that he was killed in connection with his ethnic and religious background which is not supported by explicit statements in the body. So that entire paragraph should be removed from the lead. And the "Background" section should be renamed to "David Ben Avraham", as, while it is not irrelevant who was killed, describing his ethnic and religious background as elements in the causal chain leading to his killing, which the term "background" implies or can imply, again needs to be supported by statements about such a link. So I would deal with this, but it is not necessary to describe it as a neutrality problem. —Alalch E. 16:58, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback, which I dealt with. Note that the lede is a summary of the body, and the body is a reflection of what RS have reported; all of the sources cited in the article have reported on his conversion process and ethnic and religious background, so this is definitely notable to mention. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:08, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes, basically... on a second thought, and seeing how you have handled it, moving lead paragraph lower was certainly the solution. It's too much of a copy of the corresponding content in the body however. Doesn't summarize effectively. —Alalch E. 21:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think this is the most "summarizable" version possible; one that does not miss out on important details. You're more than welcome to expand on the body, but I guess this wouldn't relate to neutrality. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:38, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Under the "Killing" section, it says that Ben Avraham got off a taxi. I checked the English source, and it does not say "taxi". I am not sure about the non-English sources.
 * The JPost article that is used as a source https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-792999 says that he got off a bus. Should "taxi" be changed to "bus"? Edit: NEVER MIND. The Times of Israel source says "he exited a Palestinian taxi at a bus station" Wafflefrites (talk) 00:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I can't say I have expertise in this area, I am very much learning. But I will do what I can given the time I have, when I am free, which I am not very. I've done some editing around quotes.  starship .paint  (RUN) 13:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Also pinging if he is able to help. Do you know anything about this recent current news event? There is a Hebrew Wikipedia article on this, and it has additional details that are not in the English sources. Wafflefrites (talk) 16:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * According to the Hebrew Wikipedia article, he was shot in the lower body, and afterward a tourniquet was applied and they called an ambulance.
 * I had added that he was shot in the lower body with an English source, but this was reverted. Here’s another source that says lower body https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/387133 Wafflefrites (talk) 16:09, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Most RS have not reported on these details, especially the "tourniquet" part, so this is definitely an extraordinary claim that would require substantial sourcing. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Is the 7Israel nation news a reliable source?
 * That is one English source that is saying
 * “The Palestinian, a 63-year-old man, was shot in his lower body. He received medical treatment but was declared dead in hospital care.” https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/387133
 * The other ones that said lower body were:
 * https://www.jns.org/palestinian-convert-to-judaism-mistakenly-killed-by-idf-in-judea/
 * https://www.jfeed.com/news-israel/sap1qc
 * I was not able to verify tourniquet or ambulance using a quick Google translate on the Hebrew Wiki article source, I might have to check again later. Wafflefrites (talk) 19:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Times of Israel is a well-known and centrist, although often biased source. Israel national news, without opening it, sounds probably like a mouthpiece of the Israeli government just from the name of it. If the lower body/tourniquet parts were true, they would have been reported first and foremost by the Time of Israel; which is obviously not the case, making this likely extraordinary claim. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Is the context in the article sufficient for NPOV? In current version (2nd to last para), it gives context of 350 Palestinians killed by Israelis. Should there be some context about Palestinian violence against Israelis (Israeli Jews), which accounts partly for the level of military and police readiness to use force? ProfGray (talk) 17:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, that makes sense. Those points and related events are in the sources, but not yet in the Wiki article. It probably belongs in the Background section. Wafflefrites (talk) 18:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No sources who reported on Ben Avraham have reported on that; trying to make this relevant would be original research. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * https://www.timesofisrael.com/suspicious-palestinian-shot-and-killed-at-west-bank-bus-stop-knife-found-in-bag/
 * “ Security forces in Jerusalem and the West Bank are on high alert due to the Ramadan Muslim holy month, amid fears that tensions could ramp up as the war against the Hamas terror group continues in Gaza.
 * On Tuesday a gunman opened fire on two Shin Bet security service officers between the settlement of Migdal Oz and the Gush Etzion Junction, some two kilometers (1.2 miles) from the Elazar bus stop.
 * The pair returned fire at the gunman, “neutralizing” him, the Shin Bet and Israel Defense Forces said. One of the officers was seriously injured, and both were taken to a hospital in Jerusalem for treatment.
 * Palestinians say over 400 people have been killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank since hostilities broke out with the Hamas terror group in Gaza on October 7, most while carrying out attacks or during clashes with IDF troops.”
 * https://www.jns.org/palestinian-convert-to-judaism-mistakenly-killed-by-idf-in-judea/
 * “ The development came after two members of Israel’s security forces were wounded on Tuesday in a shooting attack near the Oz veGaon Nature Reserve, located between the Gush Etzion Junction and Migdal Oz in Judea.
 * The victims, both of them officers of the Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet), were lightly and seriously wounded, respectively.
 * One of the officers returned fire, killing the assailant. The terrorist was identified as Ziad al-Hamran, 30, from Jenin in northern Samaria.
 * Meanwhile, the IDF said on Thursday that Israeli forces operated in the Nur Shams camp, near Tulkarem in western Samaria, hours after launching a brigade-level counterterror operation in the area.
 * The military confirmed that during the operation, an airstrike had been carried out against two terrorists who posed an “immediate threat” to troops.
 * IDF soldiers killed two additional terrorists during a gun battle and detained three wanted Palestinians.
 * On Wednesday, an Israeli Air Force drone strike killed two senior Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorists in the northern Samaria city of Jenin, according to the military and the Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet).
 * The slain terrorists were identified as Ahmed Barakat and Muhammad Hawashin.
 * According to a joint statement by the IDF and Shin Bet, Barakat carried out a terrorist shooting in Samaria on May 30, 2023, murdering Israeli civilian Meir Tamari, 31.
 * Barakat and Hawashin recently plotted a thwarted attack that targeted “the heart of Israel,” and were also behind the March 8 terrorist bombing that wounded seven Israeli soldiers at a military outpost near Homesh, outside Nablus in central Samaria, according to the statement.” Wafflefrites (talk) 00:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I will only use the Times of Israel source. The JNS source will be controversial to Wikipedians, I can already tell. Wafflefrites (talk) 00:12, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Knife in lead
The lead is long. Why does the knife need to be mentioned? The soldier wasn't aware it was there and it isn't a key fact of the story. cc @Makeandtoss Wracking  talk! 18:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Good point, I wouldn’t mind its removal. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)