Talk:Killing of Meredith Hunter/Archive 1

Images
A photo of Meredith would be nice. I read on article that said he was high on meth. Perhaps if someone could obtain the court documents we'd know more. 66.190.72.225 08:19, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if this is Meredith: - top left photo. Here?  - top left photo. Here is a color photo  - I'm assuming that's him in the white hat, front of stage  66.190.72.225 00:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I doubt the last image is him though that person appears to have darker skin color than the others. In you'll note he's wearing a white blazer, dark-colored shirt, and white pants. 66.190.72.225 04:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * his suit is lime green 05:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.72.225 (talk)
 * I think the image of Meredith on the page may be him at Altamont. He is wearing a lime green suit, plus the sign behind him says, "Entrance ahead" - entrance to the fesival I'd imagine. Anyway, his gf said he took the gun from the car right before they left it for the festival saying something like, "I may need this for protection." Friendlyliz 18:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Other Notes
The girl Hunter was with is named Patty Bredahoff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.72.225 (talk) 05:01, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Check out the videos at. Supposidly Pasarro had $10,000 on him when he drowned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.72.225 (talk) 11:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Hunter may have been trying to kill Mick  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.72.225 (talk) 05:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Autopsy results are mentioned at the bottom of this article: [] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Friendlyliz (talk • contribs) 16:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Meth
An earlier version noted that M.Hunter was under the influence of methamphetamine when he fired. Miss Bredahoff repeatedly said "Don't shoot anyone." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.207.0 (talk) 13:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The reference to Hunter's chemical was taken out on 12/10/2007, with no proof that Hunter was sober. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.207.0 (talk) 13:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * An autopsy showed up the methamphetamine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 14:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Hunter's gun
Carter arranged for Hunter's gun to be given to a lawyer called Belli. It was then apparently given to the Police. The Police have never claimed that all rounds in the gun were live. This shows that a round was fired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.207.0 (talk) 12:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Carter was keen to show Hunter's gun to the Police, in an attempt to prove that Carter should not be prosecuted. The gun showed that Hunter had started the incident. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hunter had made at least "two charges on the stage", according to "Rolling Stone" and may have seen the Angels as his enemies after that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Carter was a business-man, who owned the area where the pop concert took place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.223.218 (talk) 18:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Melvin Belli and Dick Carter were the full names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 11:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hunter's gun reached the Police in California by the Jan. of 1970. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.51.240 (talk) 14:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The Angels were also keen to give the gun to the Police, for the same reason as Carter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.212.97 (talk) 13:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Wanting to kill Jagger
Its been a long believed rumor among loyal Stones fans that Hunter acting very belligerent said "I'm gonna kill that motherfucking Jagger." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.209.226.183 (talk) 19:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC) It seems that Hunter's bullet missed Jagger. It will be vital to look at the film. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.11.103 (talk) 15:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Fired
Hunter actually fired the gun. This is not stated in the article. A film shows this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.156.12 (talk • contribs) 15:15, February 24, 2007 (UTC)
 * Sonny Barger said that a Hell's Angel was slightly injured by the shot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.207.0 (talk) 13:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * A film shows orange fire at the end of Hunter's gun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 14:42, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Barger's remark was not made until some time after the event. It is hard to check. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.223.218 (talk) 15:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There seem to be no independent witnesses who saw an Angel slightly injured. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.51.240 (talk) 12:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Patty Bredahoff said, "Don't shoot anyone." repeatedly. This was ignored by Hunter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.11.103 (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * See comments below regarding the film. 130.156.31.250 (talk) 22:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Background missing
This article should explain more about Meredith Hunter than just his death even if that's the most important part of the article. Can someone expand it? --Ghormax 18:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * His date of birth is included. If not for that fateful day it is likely that very few other than close friends and family (and God, if you believe) ever knew of his existence, or would care or be able to remember him 30 years later. Unless of course he might have gone on to become, for example, the first black president of the USA, or the leader of the Black Panthers, or CEO of Microsoft, or some other notable subject worthy of a Wikipedia biography, he was just another dude at a free concert. Unlikely that very many of us who fall into that category warrant our very own article. Garth of the Forest (talk) 17:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Payment
The Angels got $500 worth of beer and money. And other things maybe, but money for sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.55.140.174 (talk) 00:00, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Unmarked Grave?
There is a photo of his clearly marked grave at one of the references given in this article: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=13855749

It also gives his full name, which is not given in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.220.15.103 (talk) 19:01, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Re:Orange Flash in Film as Proof of Gunfire
What the Rolling Stone Article says:
 * In one frame, just before he is jumped, there is an unmistakable orange flash at the end of the pistol, Bibb adds. It lasts only for this one frame. Bibb is not saying this is a gunshot, and he's not saying it's not. It might be, say, a reflection off someone's watch or glasses. "The Angels say there was a shot fired," says Bibb. "I can't tell you. It's impossible, really, to tell what it is. None of us heard a shot."
 * In one frame, just before he is jumped, there is an unmistakable orange flash at the end of the pistol, Bibb adds. It lasts only for this one frame. Bibb is not saying this is a gunshot, and he's not saying it's not. It might be, say, a reflection off someone's watch or glasses. "The Angels say there was a shot fired," says Bibb. "I can't tell you. It's impossible, really, to tell what it is. None of us heard a shot."

Porter Bibb was an executive producer with The Maysles Brothers, the film company which had filmed the Stones' tour.

A link to the article appears in the External Links section 130.156.31.223 (talk) 21:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

None of the videos online I have seen have any orange flash before he is tackled by Passaro. There is a flash afterwards which looks more like a camera flash. It would also appear that he actually dropped the gun when he slipped to the ground just before he was stabbed, as a study of his hand in the second between those occasions shows that it is probably gunless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.9.97.204 (talk) 10:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Times
"Albert Maysles...spoke of scenes that seem to show Hunter taunting the Hell's Angels and of another shot that showed an orange flash, perhaps the flash of Hunter's gun being fired." See http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article430230.ece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.79.153 (talk) 13:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Next line from article :"Whether or not he had fired the gun is an enduring puzzle." 130.156.30.172 (talk) 17:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Others claim that whether or not he had a gun in his possession at the time is an enduring puzzle. It's all pure speculation unless reputable sources are cited for any material in this article. I've added references in the past which present the alternative viewpoint (that he may have had no gun on him at the time), but the content was removed. Garth of the Forest (talk) 17:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The gun is clearly visible in the film. It was given to the Californian Police. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.182.231 (talk) 12:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Futher note
See http://www.vnnforum.com/archive/index.php/t-63161.html Myles notes that Meredith "fired" his revolver. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.51.240 (talk) 17:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Futher note (2)
See http://www.criterion.com/asp/release.asp?id=99&eid=109&section=essay&page=2 Barger says that an Angel was shot and injured slightly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.197.91 (talk) 17:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, now there is a reliable, objective source, a convicted felon who claims that the HA are just a bunch of misunderstood people who like to ride motorcycles, and whose close associates were there at the time and some of them could have been one of the individuals who inflicted wounds on the victim in addition to those inflicted by the man who was ultimately charged. There is no evidence to support the suggestion that a member of the HA, or anyone else involved or within range at the time of the Hunter incident, was wounded by gunfire, other than the claims of the HA members and associates. It is pure speculation, and could very well also be pure BS. But I certainly wouldn't tell Barger that to his face.He might be in his seventies and weakened from cancer but he could probably still kick my ass or more likely have a swarm of his thugs do it for him. P.S. I am not supporting one view or the other. Barger could be telling the truth. I read his autobiographical book and he seems like a straight shooter on many issues, but in his book he obviously avoids being completely forthcoming about other issues (by omission) - likely to avoid further prosecutions for he or his colleagues, or to continue to promote the organization's laughable public marketing claims that they are simply a "motorcycle club" who have a few members who sometimes break the law. They are an organized crime syndicate, pure and simple, this transition from "outlaw motorcycle club" to "organized crime syndicate" has been going on since about the mid-sixties, and there is plenty of evidence to support this. For anyone to suggest otherwise is to really bring in to question your own POV and knowledge of the subject matter. Garth of the Forest (talk) 18:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree there's no proof Hunter fired a shot, but he most definitely brandished the pistol, likely with the intent of shooting Mick Jagger as, according to several witnesses including his girlfriend he was yelling at Jagger both times he tried to rush the stage. He was also so high he could barely speak or walk. I made a similar change to Altamont Free Concert. Bullzeye contribs 13:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone is try to deny the pistol was brought out. Saying that he intended to shoot Jagger is speculation. Also, if he was so high he could barely speak or walk, how did he manage to yell at Jagger and rush the stage? 130.156.29.64 (talk) 17:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Notability?
Seems like a blatant case of a person only notable for one event. There's nothing here that can't be covered in the Altamont Free Concert article. Stu  ’Bout ye!  23:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Father
Meredith is said to have had an American Indian father. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.30.71.244 (talk • contribs) 15:42, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you please provide a link to a reliable source for that information? If so, I'll update the article. — Satori Son 16:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See http://www.iorr.org/talk/read.php?1,1165602,1165750 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.13.212.102 (talk) 16:47, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Fire
Numerous attempts have been made to take out remarks about the bright orange flash at the end of Hunter's gun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.145.214 (talk) 10:09, 12 May 2010 (UTC) The flash is easily visible in one frame in the film. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.145.214 (talk) 10:12, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

No danger
There is no danger of being sued for libel by Passaro, as he is no longer with us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.30.71.244 (talk) 15:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC) As Passaro was acquitted in about 1971, newspapers were very vague. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.30.71.244 (talk) 15:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

East Bay Executors
Meredith Hunter was a member of a gang called the East Bay Executors. A Google search will produce some sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.117.81 (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The gang has been described as petty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.122.68 (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Name change
It would be more appropriate to name this article Murder of Meredith Hunter as it is about the incident rather than the person. 82.34.68.225 (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC) There is nothing to be gained by a long arguement on the title of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.254.83 (talk) 12:19, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It also wasn't a murder, as adjudicated by the court. It was a justifiable homicide. There's a major legal difference. Court Appointed Shrub (talk) 09:00, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Racial Relations
Hunter was probably the only black person at the concert. Perhaps this should be mentioned? 66.190.72.225 07:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Placed African American category tag on article. 66.190.72.225 00:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * "The only black person"? What's your sources? 惑乱 分からん 20:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Not so. Just finished watching Gimme Shelter and there were hundreds of black people there. There were also people collecting donations for the Black Panthers. Jm butler 23:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow whoever made that first comment is an idiot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robberex (talk • contribs) 04:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Total bullshit, as has been explained by others. There were many, many African-Americans at the Altamont show. Only one of them drew a revolver in front of the stage. Court Appointed Shrub (talk) 09:02, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Restoring page
I don't know how to return the article and talk page to their original title. Please help. This change was made without consensus. Anastrophe (talk) 18:36, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Article restored to original title. If you don't like the title, provide the reliable sources that justify a move; Wikipedia is a collaborative medium. Editors are welcome to change anything by whim, fiat, or for fun or vandalism; however, they can expect their changes to be reverted relentlessly if not done within the confines of wikipedia policy. Continued changes such as this without consensus or validation beyond "because I say so" will eventually result in sanctions. Anastrophe (talk) 17:41, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

"Incident" ?
Stop that bullshit story about the 'court'. That was part of the cover-up. The Angels destroyed all film and photo evidence already early at the fest; and if it wasn't for the cameras of the Maysles crew, then probably Hunter would've died from 'suicide'...(another 'incident', right?) So there were no witnesses who dared to speak out in a fair trial. The Angels, of course, rigged the gun, by handing over the pistol to the cops, that was now in a condition as if it had fired shots. This is tell-tale, since not one single shot was fired a/o heard that day at the Speedway.

But the Angels went after, battered and manhandled Hunter before, during and after they stabbed him to death. (Somewhere in the middle he took out the thing, which was unloaded and merely meant to deter. His friends knew that he took an unloaded gun along.) The HA made sure that he'd die at the spot by deliberately frustrating a doctor and the Red Cross team in their efforts. That's murder in anyone's book.

Now for something completely different. December 3, 1979, 11 people died during a concert of The Who in Cincinatti. That was an uproar, no more. It was MANSLAUGHTER. Altamont wasn't. AlterBerg (talk) 17:00, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Unless your view is significantly backed by contemporary historians and/or law experts, it is just a conspiracy theory. State reliable sources. Psychotic17 (talk) 18:07, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * How can anyone believe given the chain of custody that the Angels didn't tamper with the gun? I think this article is NPOV, biased in favor of Hunter's killers. The Angel got off not b/c it was declared "self-defense" but b/c there were other stab wounds on Hunter's body. I wish someone with more time could fix this horribly slanted article article. The idea that Hunter was trying to kill Jagger is a total snow-job:: Detmcphierson (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Gun toward the stage
Screenshot from Gimme Shelter shows Hunter drawing his gun in the direction of the stage. Any claim other than this cannot be supported, and is revisionist history. ,. 45.40.143.57 (talk) 09:14, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The 'gun right there' link shows the gun pointed down, not at the stage. The photographer was on the stage. There are no frames of the film that incontrovertibly show the gun point at the stage. Hunter may have been in the act of raising the gun towards the stage - but we can only speculate. I don't have a dog in this fight. Some sort of compromise is needed - some source say 'stage', some sources say 'air'. All sources are speculative and based upon later statements - not evidence from the film. Anastrophe (talk) 21:19, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * It was not a photograph/er. It is a screenshot from the film. The cameraman was standing to the left of the stage. That lit area is directly in front of the stage, in front of Mick Jagger, where the security was located. Rolling Stone used an anonymous source which then contradicts itself by using another which stated: "He flipped over and he's got this revolver — it looked like a cannon. It was pointed right at me. I hit the deck and this gun was pointed right at Jagger." Where was Jagger? He was standing on stage! 45.40.143.57 (talk) 05:21, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Good thing original research isn't allowed. One could look at the picture and change the text to 'pointing the gun at an anthill'
 * You make a good point about reconciling different sources, however. As an autoconfirmed editor with no dog in the fight, how would you rephrase?  2600:1001:B017:F1A8:C831:B710:FA63:AD17 (talk) 18:34, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I haven't engaged in original research. It would be original research if I altered the article to conform to _my_ speculations. I'd suggest you guys who keep going back and forth on this find a middle ground, it isn't hard. 'Where Meredith's gun was pointed is a matter of debate. Some sources[] suggest it was pointed at the stage, others[] suggest it was pointed elsewhere'. Something like that. It shouldn't be hard, if you collaborate and stop edit warring with each other. Anastrophe (talk) 18:44, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Just looking at the history, I noticed straight after the block was lifted the first act by our "friend" from New Jersey was to revert the article, not discuss any changes. Not only did they falsely accuse Anastrophe of original research but abused FoCuSandLeArN for doing their job. That's not cool at all. 45.40.143.57 (talk) 11:13, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The original research comment was directed at you, for attempting to use an uncaptioned picture as a source. As correcting Anastrophe was not relevant to the point I was making, I declined to do so in keeping with civil behavior.  The remainder of your comment makes little sense, but you have a tendency to project.  Hey, isn't using open proxies to post contrary to wiki guidelines? 63.143.224.215 (talk) 00:24, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Angels contracted for security?
This entry makes that claim, but the entry about the concert provides considerable evidence to the contrary. The assertion is unproven and should be removed. 2607:FCC8:B804:9A00:6C62:15E4:328E:5D67 (talk) 05:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160407031324/http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/uniontrib/20050527/news_1n27altamont.html to http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/uniontrib/20050527/news_1n27altamont.html

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Alleged earlier stabbing
The newspaper "Rolling Stone", dealing in pop music, is not a reliable source. If Hunter had been stabbed earlier, he would have been bleeding heavily in the earlier part of the film. This is not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:4E9F:D101:1E3:45FE:86B4:F00E (talk) 10:11, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Rolling Stone is considered a reliable source by Wikipedia.  Grey joy talk 10:16, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The article says, "The coroner says there were five stab wounds. The film accounts for only two, once again suggesting the possibility that Hunter may have been stabbed earlier ". The phrase "may have" falls short of claiming that the earlier stabbing was certainly so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:4E9F:D101:1E3:45FE:86B4:F00E (talk) 10:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 11 October 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved

This is going to be controversial so I thought that I would explain myself. The point brought about by User:BarrelProof are valid, but the guidance at WP:DEATHS, I feel is stronger. If anyone feels I made a bad close, feel free to take me to move review. (non-admin closure) NW1223 (Howl at me / My hunts) 00:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Death of Meredith Hunter → Killing of Meredith Hunter – This main title header was mentioned as an example of an existing "Death of..." title at the discussion regarding the ultimately unsuccessful Death of Benito Mussolini → Killing of Benito Mussolini RM. As in the case of the Mussolini header, this one has never been submitted at RM, although it had been previously unilaterally moved to "Murder of..." The fact that there was no conviction does not mean that there was no killing as in the absence of conviction in such cases as Killing of Eric Garner or Killing of Philando Castile. — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:39, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * per WP:DEATHS. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * As noted below by BarrelProof, DEATHS is not a policy/guideline, but an explanatory supplement to WP:TITLE. That said, I think its guidance here is worthwhile. We should, if given the opportunity, inform our readers early on that Hunter was killed. The proposed title is equally appropriate on most WP:CRITERIA, negligibly worse on concision, and noticeably improved on consistency. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 06:07, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support as per nom. 162 etc. (talk) 04:07, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per DeCausa at Talk:Death of Benito Mussolini – "in the English language, 'Killing of ...' is an awkward, crude, clumsy and unencyclopedic term compared to 'Death of .... It seems especially inappropriate when describing the sort of death that occurred under the confused and murky circumstances described here. "Death" is a generic term that does not imply a lack of violence. It should be noted that WP:DEATHS is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. —&#8288;&#8202;&#8288;BarrelProof (talk) 05:53, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. It should be noted that there is continued consensus for use of the form "Killing of..." Concurrent with the lack of acceptance for Death of Benito Mussolini → Killing of Benito Mussolini, there was consensus for two other RMs — Death of Marvin Gaye → Killing of Marvin Gaye as well as Death of Muammar Gaddafi → Killing of Muammar Gaddafi. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:24, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Also, the Mussolini discussion had some additional complications that aren't present here (e.g. the possibility that it should instead be called "Execution of"). Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:29, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:52, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Meredith-hunter-lime-suit.jpg

Link to photo of gravestone
The link to the photo of the gravestone is _not_ being used to verify any factual data about the person. For verification of data, it is agreed that FindAGrave is unreliable due to being self-published. The link is only to document the existence of the grave marker, for which the photo is evidence.Blainster (talk) 02:18, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * If it's not being used to verify factual data, it shouldn't be presented as a citation - this makes it appear that the facts given are verified, when they are not. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)