Talk:Kimora Amour

Page title
Do editors agree with the move from Kimora Amour to Justin Baird?

Curious if you have any thoughts? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not acceptable without a full requested moves discussion. Wikipedia's rule is not "title the article with the name that's on the subject's birth certificate", it's "title the article with the name that would be most widely recognized by the general public". For example, Beyoncé's husband's article is located at Jay-Z, not at Shawn Carter, the "Say So" singer's article is located at Doja Cat, not at Amala Ratna Zandile Dlamini; and on and so forth. The question of person vs. character is not relevant to how the page should be titled — what matters is, if a person with no prior knowledge about Justin Baird/Kimora Amour is looking to learn about Justin Baird/Kimora Amour, then what name are they actually likelier to type into the search bar? So this was not an "uncontroversial" request, and cannot be done without discussion. I mean, virtually all drag queens are technically characters being played by people with different legal names on their birth certificates than the one they use on stage — very few drag queens (although admittedly not none) perform under the same name that they use when they're applying for a credit card or lining up at the DMV to renew their driver's license. So that's not a thing that makes Justin Baird/Kimora Amour a special case who would be subject to different naming considerations than other drag queens, it's an issue that would apply the same way to nearly all drag queens, and would require us to reconsider every drag queen's page title across the board. For exactly the same reasons, we would have to move Bianca Del Rio to Roy Haylock, Trixie Mattel to Brian Firkus, Jinkx Monsoon to Jerick Hoffer, Mimi Imfurst to Braden Chapman, Priyanka to Mark Suknanan, Brooke Lynn Hytes to Brock Hayhoe, Divine to Harris Milstead, Lady Bunny to Jon Ingle, and on and so forth: Kimora Amour is not a special case who's subject to different issues than any other drag queen in this regard, the issue that was claimed to justify a page move always applies the same way to all drag queens. I will grant that in this specific case, there may be competing interpretations of which name is "better known", given that "Kimora Amour" is the name he used in the Drag Race franchise (through which he's known internationally) while "Justin Baird" is the name he used in the Amazing Race franchise (where ARC technically has a larger audience within Canada than CDR, but has absolutely no significant international audience to speak of) — but precisely because there are competing interpretations in play here, this requires a full RM discussion, with the page moved only if a consensus supports that, and cannot be bypassed by just asking for an "uncontroversial" move on technical grounds. Bearcat (talk) 15:32, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * As a quick comment on "Same Name", at least on the US version of the Franchise, there were Derrick Barry, Willam Belli (who participated as Willam) and Kelly Mantle who participated under their birth name. There are also some who participated in the US version, came out as transgender and eventually transitioned to being a woman and took their drag name as their legal name, I believe that Carmen Carrera falls into that category.Naraht (talk) 21:54, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * If Justin would not have exploded in popularity as a contestant in Amazing Race Canada. I wouldn't make a case for it, but the reality is most Canadian know him as Justin and not Kimora Amour.
 * This article from CTV News that “Justin, performs as drag star Kimora Amour” (https://more.ctv.ca/ctv/jermaine-and-justin.html) The article is about Justin Baird. In “Background” section, the life of Justin Baird is explained as he is a father and that he works as a nurse, ‘’Kimora’’ Doesn’t work as a nurse, it is Justin. He is not Trans, he is a gay drag queen performer who has many things going on for him, notability was a star of the Amazing Race Canada under his ‘’real life’’ identity. Furthermore, in he filmography section Justin’s appearances are ‘’himself’’ on the shows.
 * - Yahoo! News (https://ca.news.yahoo.com/amazing-race-canada-jermaine-aranha-justin-baird-drag-race-205205562.html)
 * - CTV News “Justin, performs as drag star Kimora Amour” Justin Baird -> Occupation Pain Management Nurse/Drag Queen (https://more.ctv.ca/ctv/jermaine-and-justin.html)
 * - Bell Media Justin Baird -> Occupation: Pain Management Nurse/Drag Queen (Kimora Amour) (https://www.bellmedia.ca/the-lede/press/on-your-mark-canada-all-10-teams-revealed-for-season-9-of-the-amazing-race-canada-beginning-july-4-on-ctv/)
 * - Winnipeg Free Press friends and “drag sisters” Jermaine Aranha and Justin Baird want to serve as an inspiration for other LGBTQ people. (https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/entertainment/celebrities/2023/06/21/paralympian-other-advocates-set-to-hit-the-road-for-the-amazing-race-canada)
 * - CTV Television Network: Justin indicated that he is doing the "art of drag", also noted by their shirts "Drag is Art". As he is an artist playing a character. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XceX5q-Vs Lethweimaster (talk) 22:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * As I noted above, absolutely every drag queen who exists is always a character being played by somebody who very nearly always had a different legal name on their birth certificate. Absolutely every drag queen who exists is always legal-name, not queen-name, in their non-public day job; absolutely every drag queen who exists is always fundamentally a character being portrayed by an actor. So you're not saying anything that would make Justin Baird/Kimora Amour different than any other drag queen for the purposes of what should or shouldn't be the page's title — because absolutely every drag queen who exists is always subject to the same dichotomy between the person's real name and their performing stage name. What is it that would make Kimora Amour/Justin Baird a special case who was somehow subject to different naming considerations than Bianca Del Rio/Roy Haylock, Trixie Mattel/Brian Firkus, Jinkx Monsoon/Jerick Hoffer, Mimi Imfurst/Braden Chapman, Priyanka/Mark Suknanan, Brooke Lynn Hytes/Brock Hayhoe, Divine/Harris Milstead or Lady Bunny/Jon Ingle, when they're all characters being played by people who use a different name in other parts of their life? Why does this drag queen warrant being treated differently than every other drag queen? Also, it doesn't matter what name he does or doesn't use in his work as a nurse, because being a nurse isn't why he has an encyclopedia article — and absolutely nobody in this discussion ever claimed he was trans in the first place, so protesting that he's not trans has nothing to do with it either. The only relevant question is which name represents his most notable public activity — but (a) Drag Race has an international audience while The Amazing Race Canada has no non-Canadian carriage at all, and (b) Drag Race brings competitors into an established international touring circuit of continued public activity while The Amazing Race does not, with the result that Drag Race competitors get enough sustained coverage after the show that they usually get Wikipedia articles even if they lose, while Amazing Race competitors usually don't get enough sustained coverage after the show to get or keep a Wikipedia article even if they win, so it's just not at all clear that ARC would represent a more notable activity than CDR. Like, in the entire List of The Amazing Race Canada contestants the only people who do have their own standalone articles are the ones who also have some other claim of notability as an entertainer, a sports figure, a politician, a writer or something else besides ARC itself, and absolutely nobody in that list got an article because of ARC per se — and incidentally, don't kid yourself I haven't figured out that you're one of the people in that list too. Bearcat (talk) 21:07, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You made some really great points and I appreciate the thorough answer. The points you make about coverage and the ARC being less notable than the DragRace makes sense. "Drag Race has an international audience while The Amazing Race Canada has no non-Canadian carriage at all". I was under the impression that Justin (because of his performance on TARC would require more "light" on his name. But as you said here "absolutely nobody in that list got an article because of ARC". Which is a very solid argument. I have no other choice but to agree with you on the article's name. I occasionally wander around on other topics other than sports, but I should be prudent. Thank you for the lesson. Lethweimaster (talk) 18:45, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Just FYI, you're allowed to edit on topics other than sports, I'm not taking any issue with that at all — it's just that you have to exercise some caution on topics where you might potentially be perceived as having a conflict of interest, such as the articles about you (which I won't name, to be fair) or your fellow alumni of a reality competition you've been in. Bearcat (talk) 15:37, 2 October 2023 (UTC)