Talk:Kindergarten/Archive 1

1930s
Did they have to pay for kindergarten in the 1930's? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.60.244.130 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 8 April 2005 (UTC)

Description
Not sure what a description of the first years of schooling in different countries is doing under Kindergarten as this is a specialised kind of school and should be seperated from early schooling in general. -Octopussy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Octopussy (talk • contribs) 16:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hutterites
I was reasonably certain the Hutterites invented kindergarten.--T. Anthony 10:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Non-sequitur?
From the article: "He coined the term Kindergarten in 1840 to mark the four hundredth anniversary of the invention of movable type by Gutenberg." What does the term have to do with Gutenberg, moveable type or 400 years? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.13.163.36 (talk • contribs) 23:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually this is a feeble attempt to quote the copyright material on Froebel Web at http://www.froebelweb.org/webline.html. The actual quote is "To mark the four hundredth anniversary of Gutenberg's discovery of movable type, 28 June 1840, Froebel officially opened the first Kindergarten." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.163.133.140 (talk • contribs) 07:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction
I made some changes to the introduction which was grammaticaly weak and completely disregarded kindergarten/early childhood education in the entire rest of the world outside of the US. --Brideshead 21:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not neutral. In the United States, nursery school is for children not old enough to attend Kindergarten.  This is not a worldwide view. (69.117.20.128 - Talk ) 01:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It is neutral because it references US usage and usage in other countries. It makes it clear that it is for the education of young children (3-6) and learning is focussed on play.  If you think it does not acurately represent the US version of kindergarten then rectify that, however the word is used differently elsewhere and this needs to be reflected in the intro.  --Brideshead 14:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't references US usage at all. Says here  I am reverting that...because it doesn't reflect US definitions. (209.177.21.6 - Talk ) 20:41, 16 March (UTC)

Questionable Description of Korean Kindergarten
In the 'Kindergarten Activities' section there is evidence cited for why kindergarten should avoid didactic academic instruction. The following claim that 'kindergarten programs in South Korea successfully incorporate much academic instruction' is supported by no such evidence. Also lacking supporting evidence is the following description that:

"The goal of the teacher [Korean kindergarten teacher] is to overcome weak points in each child's knowledge or skills."

I fail to see how this is particular comment a.) belongs under the subheading 'Kindergarten Activities' and b.) since it lacks evidence, is different from the optimistic musing of a school's promotional material. 211.219.147.79 12:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Empty sections for each country
I'm removing all these useless empty sections on the situation in countries around the world. The tag will stay, but having so many headers is useless. --MathiasRav 18:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

This article needs cleanup
The list of random article citations is useless. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of random information. If useful information can be gleaned from the citations and brought into the article (with the citations used as references), please do so. Otherwise, get rid of the citation list.

See Wikipedia official policy What Wikipedia is not. --Coolcaesar 08:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you please give some examples from this Wikipedia article, which may serve to illustrate your claim, please? Thank you in advance.  Hans Rosenthal (ROHA) (hans.rosenthal AT t-online.de -- replace AT by @ ) (18062007) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.148.64.213 (talk • contribs) 02:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I am referring to the article's Section 3, "Readings," which merely lists a bunch of articles. If I wanted to read a bibliography or mere compilation of articles about kindergarten, I can pull a bibliography on education topics at the public library which will have hundreds of such citations.  The content of the articles pointed to by the citations needs to be drawn into this article directly in order to be useful.  See my work on Lawyer for an example of how to weave together a large number of disparate sources into a (mostly) coherent article.  That's encyclopedic-style writing. --Coolcaesar 07:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Re-organisation
I've had a go at re-doing this page. The article seemed to suggest that the US usage of the word kindergarten as the first year of school was the predominant usage rather than something which appears to be specific to the US and Canada. (I've added a reference to support the view that in most countries kindergarten equates to pre-school). I wonder if it might perhaps be best to have a separate article for kindergarten in North America. Much of the material, eg, the long reading list, is US-specific and doesn't really belong in a general article on kindergarten. I'm also not sure if much of the material for the various countries actually belongs here as it relates to pre-school education rather than the specific use of the word kindergarten.Dahliarose 20:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Age
How about AGE! What is the age range and why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.35.160.134 (talk) 15:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced POV statements about conformity
The comments about Kindergarten being essentially a training camp for conformity aren't WP:NPOV, and certainly aren't sourced. They should not be added without a reliable, neutral source for the information. Torc2 (talk) 21:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * While I tend to agree with some of what Mmmmtmmmm is saying, these asseretions should be attributable to a third party through an inline reference. The editorial aspects of Mmmmtmmmm's contributions drift to far into expressing a POV; WP is not the right forum for political editorial.  I think that Torc has acted appropriately, and Mmmmtmmmm should discuss further changes here at the talk page.  Cheers! --Kevin Murray (talk) 01:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Not required?
Prekindergarten is not required. So is Kindergarten also not required? (69.117.20.128 - talk) 18:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats a bit debatable since kindergarten is described as a transition period into more formal and compulsory school. I wont pretend I have facts or am an expert but I think that it is required to let kids be kids and at the same time be able to interact with other children in a controlled environment. --38.104.129.90 (talk) 21:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

YEAH, no kidding!
(italics added by me) "In the United States kindergartens are usually part of the K-12 educational system. "

...Dude. CocoaEmbry (talk) 21:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Recent image
I cannot possibly see how this is appropriate in this article. How is a picture of a rocket attack against Israel benefiting this article? By illustrating that one kindergarten in Israel was hit by a rocket when the school was closed? I removed it once, was reverted and asked to discuss, so anybody willing to discuss please do. Nableezy (talk) 04:35, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, can't you laugh Nab? Clearly this is a joke. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * doesnt seem like it. Nableezy (talk) 04:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Remove it for now. Leave a warning on his userpage so he can't play the ignorant card. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I am in no mood for the jokes. I believed the image was important for the article to show what hamas does with Kindergartens in Israel. I was told that "not the article for this". Of course it is not. The question is, if Israeli kindergartens are for bombing by hamas? IMO as long as  kindergartens in Israel are getting bomed by hamas, the image belongs to the article, but whatever... I will not add it anymore. Let's say it was "a joke". (I wish very much it was a joke...)--mbz1 (talk) 13:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Playtime
Many Internet sites say that in recent years, kindergarten lost its playtime and is now made entirely out of schoolwork, but I can't find any info on this in Wikipedia. Any info?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Free childcare
This should mention that the main purpose for Govt. paying for kindergarten, & all education, is for free childcare so both parents can work. Stars4change (talk) 05:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation
What you hear here, is how a Japanese pronounces the word "kindergarten"

De-kindergarten.ogg Kindergarten (help·info)

But this is not how the word is pronounced in German. You may easily verify this by asking any German tourist comming by. Please replace that (Japanese-toned) pronunciation by a German one.

Thank you.

Hans Rosenthal (native German) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.148.111.87 (talk) 05:49, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

PS: Did I say "pronunciation by a German one"? -- Sorry, I meant: By an American.

United States - contradictory information
The section "United States" has contradictory information: "In most states, it is not required for children to attend kindergarten. ... in most states it is a requirement in order for the child to enter 1st grade." It can't be both ways in most states. —Mmathu (talk) 05:40, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you know which is true in the USA? The main assumption here has been that kindergarten is optional and formal education comes later. Rixs (talk) 09:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

UK
The term is not "rarely used" in the UK. Its use is common but I'll agree that Nursery and Play school are also used. I attended a pre-school which called itself a 'kindergarten' over 30 years ago and it was no different in terms of educational philosophy to other such schools. Today the term is used far more than before especially given that the focus is on education rather than merely 'playing' thus making the term Play school a little inaccurate.--Xania talk 22:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Theresa Brunszvik in Hungary
A section promoting Theresa Brunszvik has been added to this article and several other articles by Farkasven. Please consider the following clarifications:
 * Please give references that we can verify. "Budapest Lexikon 1993" is not detailed enough.
 * The claims in Kindergarten about ladies needing a good singing voice, and that whole section, need to be objective and verified.
 * Are you sure that your Hungarian insititution is the first kindergarten in the world?
 * I do not think that this historical point is so important that it should appear in the introduction to all these articles.
 * Please make your point in one main article, for example Kindergarten. You can refer to it from other places without repeating it. Actually, Nursery school should be quite a short article, because it's almost a synonym for Kindergarten. --- Rixs (talk • contribs) 17:15, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Farkasven said (on a different talk page), Im terrible sorry but its a matter of dates. If Brunszvik's preschool was founded in 1828, and then it became popular in all the kingdom and after that Friedrich Fröbel opened his kindergarten in germany on 1837, who do you think opened it first? I think it needs no explanations. --Farkasven


 * I have spent some time trying to find out who invented Forest kindergartens, and in which country. The evidence is not clear. There are lots of people claiming to be the first; I uncovered several as I was looking. Basically, I am not convinced that 1828 was the first organised education for pre-school children. And your references are inadequate, especially for the point of view about teachers.


 * So, regarding "its a matter of dates":
 * Are you sure she was the very first in the world?
 * Are you sure her kind of kindergarten was the same as we understand today?
 * Are you sure your references are correct?
 * Am I sure your references are correct?


 * Your edits have changed the tone of many articles into a competitive claim about inventors. It does not help Wikipedia to have that tone. Your evidence is still difficult to verify. I think you can make this claim effectively in the Kindergarten section, and the article about Theresa Brunszvik, without being so political in the main articles.


 * After a quick look on the web, I find references to infant schools in England in 1816, clearly saying that the Hungarian school of 1828 "followed in the wake of the English model"


 * So it is "a well-known fact that the infant school movement developed after the example of the infant school in New Lanark founded by Robert Owen in 1816" . (New Lanark is actually in Scotland, not England).


 * Who is to say that there wasn't an earlier one? But your spamming of so many pages with Hungarian claims are not what Wikipedia needs.


 * --- Rixs (talk) 09:01, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

History
The German version of this article claims invention in Hungary 1828, though not under the destinct name "Kindergarten". But the descripted practice is obviously the same as today. Dcutter (talk) 17:32, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

On 10 September 2009, the history section was deleted. Should it be restored? It was:



Friedrich Fröbel opened the first kindergarten on 28 June 1840 to mark the four hundredth anniversary of Gutenberg's invention of movable type. Fröbel created the name and the term Kindergarten for the Play and Activity Institute, which he had founded in 1837 in the village of Bad Blankenburg, in the small, former principality of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt, Thuringia, Germany. The first kindergarten in the United States was founded in Watertown, Wisconsin by Margarethe (Meyer) Schurz (wife of activist/statesman Carl Schurz) in 1856. It was based on Fröbelite principles that she had learned about in Europe. Schurz’s older sister, Bertha Meyer Ronge, had opened "Infant Gardens" in London (1851), Manchester (1859), and Leeds (1860). Margarethe Schurz initially taught five children in her home (including her own daughter, Agatha) in Watertown, Wisconsin. Her success drove her to offer her education to other children as well. While Schurz's first kindergarten was German-language, she also advocated the establishment of English-language kindergartens. She is credited with converting Elizabeth Peabody to the Fröbel philosophy at a meeting in Boston in 1859. Later that year, Peabody founded the first English-language kindergarten in America in Boston, following Schurz's model. The first free kindergarten in America was founded in 1870 by Conrad Poppenhusen, a German industrialist and philanthropist who settled in College Point, NY, where he established the Poppenhusen Institute, still in existence today. The first publicly financed kindergarten in the United States was established in St. Louis in 1873 by Susan Blow.

A properly documented version of this section SHOULD be restored. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.180.193 (talk) 10:50, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Much of that is there, and I don't think that every fragment of detail needs to be on a general page. We had a debate earlier about the Hungarian origins; I later found earlier kindergartens in Scotland. So, the historical section has most of the information but probably deserves to be edited together better. --- Rixs (talk) 13:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

No criticism?
No criticism of all this early education? Surely somebody out there has something to say against making human beings into cogs this early. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.43 (talk) 21:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Better than not teaching them to be obedient, and having them wind up in Abu Ghraib  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmmmtmmmm (talk • contribs) 20:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I was surprised too. Lots of people withhold their kids from kindergarten because they don't believe in early education or breaking up families so early - most of Europe start school at aged 6 but parts of the UK as young as 4.--Xania [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 22:26, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think there isn't any heavy criticism because this subject isn't very well defined. Also in many countries kindergartens education standards aren't defined. So one kindergarten could be just kids playing all day with brief periods of structured learning, and another kindergarten might be 6 hours of structured learning with short breaks of "play time" or "physical activity" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.112.69.50 (talk) 12:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Chile?
I don't believe that Chilean children remain in kindergarden until 27 years old! I can't read the citation given though, so could anyone help fix it? 99.236.60.25 (talk) 01:49, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Added section for Malaysia
I have added information about Malaysia in the page.

In Malaysia, kindergarten is a part of pre-school program. Kindergarten at here is available for children of ages five and six. Some kindergarten also made available to children of four. Some primary school (usually private schools) required the children to attend kindergarten before being registered for the first year of primary school.

Can someone add more informations about Malaysia, I think it is really needed! Read here to understand Malaysian education better.

For me myself, I attended a Chinese-native kindergarten named Tadika GBBM in Malay and 青团运幼儿园 in Chinese when I was 5 and 6 years old. In English, it was written as GBBM Kindergarten. The term GBBM is actually stands for Gerakan Belia Bersatu Malaysia [ MS ] (literally means United Youth Movement of Malaysia, in Chinese: 马来西亚青年团结运动) -- 빛다얕 /Muhammad Nur Hidayat /喜达亚 (talk 10:43, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://socialist-courier.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/robert-owen-and-new-lanark.htm. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Voceditenore (talk) 16:04, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: The copyvio appears to have been added to the "History" section with this edit. I have reverted that section to version 533102551. That version has been fairly stable for a long time and predates the blog material which had been added. See for example this virtually identical version as of 26 June 2012, 3 days before the 29 June 2012 blog post. Voceditenore (talk) 16:04, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

China
I deleted the "approximate English pronunciation" of the Chinese word for kindergarten. If its really necessary, someone could add the Wade-Giles pronunciation instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.86.8 (talk) 00:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Wade-Giles is not official and not precise. One should use Pinyin, the official system in both China and Taiwan.--95.116.224.152 (talk) 02:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Kindergarten as German invention
I'm not sure what the right status of this is, but it seems to me that there is a double case for calling kindergarten a German invention: 1st, the earliest early childhood care centers seem to have been created there, and second, the actual kindergarten was clearly created by Froebel. I'm open to hearing counter-arguments, however. hgilbert (talk) 07:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Year 0
I removed the following from the history section.

In some systems kindergarten is called Grade 0, which is also sometimes classified as "a mixture between kindergarten and a school regime." "

It could go under a specific country, but where is the term year 0 used?

-- HGilbert (talk) 14:20, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Too culturally specific?
This page seems very strange to me - the term kindergarten seems quite USA specific (apart from Germany obviously) and this page seems designed to explain the rest of the world to a USA audience. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to have a page with a more neutral term, like 'pre-school education' or 'education for very young children' with kindergarten as a page more specific to the USA? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.158.248.43 (talk • contribs) 21:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm British but would definitely disagree. I'm almost 30 now but I went to two different 'pre schools' in completely different parts of the British Isles and both used 'kindergarten' in their title.  Kindergarten seems the best word to use as it is used to some degree or another in every English-speaking country and other countries.  What better name is there?  The UK uses preschool, nursery school, children's school and lots of different names yet the name most common between the different countries is kindergarten.--Xania [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 20:11, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Pre-school is not kindergarten. Pre-school comes before kindergarten because kindergarten is school and pre-school just seems, to me, personally, like something that would come before school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.181.19.39 (talk) 00:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it is not even Germany-specific, as implied by the OP - I have grewn up in Southern Germany, and here, Kindergarten has nothing to do with preschool. Preschool is - as the name says - a form of education that prepares children for elementary school, whereas Kindergarten is not education; it is more like a child nursery where children are brought for half a day to play (and sometimes do some supervised handicrafting or needlework) while their parents are at work. 129.69.215.20 (talk) 11:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I work in a Kindergarten in Germany and Kindergarten is definitely considered as education. It is not just a place where parents can put their children so that they can concentrate on their jobs. It is true though that Kindergarten is not part of the school system. 89.13.187.199 (talk) 22:14, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Reorg proposal
Please see a proposal the various articles in the cloud around this subject. Lfstevens (talk) 04:38, 27 November 2013 (UTC)


 * have responded on that page suggesting merging the country-by-county content into the relevant 'education in xxx' and retaining a shorter article on the method and its origins. PeterEastern (talk) 06:47, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

This does not make sense: "(modern Kitchener), in 1882 T Central School)" Hans Rosenthal (A.H.R.D.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.17.204.254 (talk) 00:17, 25 March 2017 (UTC)