Talk:King & Winge (fishing schooner)

Question about sources
Repost from WikiProject Oregon talk page by Katr67.

What is the McCurdy reference?

Burt Morton McConnell's article in the New York Times, 15 Sept 1914, has Olaf Swenson landing at Wrangel Island and more-or-less agrees with Swenson's own account in Northwest of the World. Is McCurdy the source for the contrary information? is this a known controversy? Dankarl (talk) 21:17, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If you check the page history:, it looks like started the article and added the McCurdy ref. You could ask on his/her talk page about the ref if s/he doesn't reply here. Cheers, Katr67 (talk) 22:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah -- Dan, I see you did already find this page. Mtsmallwood has done a whole lot of articles about boats in the PNW; I think he/she owns most of these books, so can probably look up your question. Yes, the user talk page might be the best bet. -Pete (talk) 22:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Answer on McCurdy
This is the H.W. McCurdy Marine History of the Pacific Northwest, published in 1966 by Superior Publishing in Seattle Washington. This is a big one-volume encyclopedia organized on a year-to-year basis, but with a good index. It covers the years 1896 to 1966 (or so). It was funded by H.W. McCurdy and a lot of other people. Gordon Newell was the chief editor, but there was a large additonal editorial board of a variety of marine historians and retired captains, many of whom themselves wrote other books. Of the top of my head I think Fritz Timmen, author of the widely published Blow for the Landing (still in print, I think, by Caxton), was one of the board members. (McCurdy was not the author, but since he gave them a lot of money to publish it, it was named after him.) I have seen an ISBN number, but I am not sure this is the full encyclopedia. I think you can find it in most major libraries in the Pacific Northwest. Mtsmallwood (talk) 01:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification on the McCurdy reference. I'm in the Midwest so it may take a little doing to get my hands on a copy.  Was it your source for the Swenson info? Dankarl (talk) 20:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This was one of my first articles so I wasn't as good with the notes. I think the Swenson information came from the 1962 news clipping, which I have somewhere and will review.  The Swenson expedition was quite a big deal for the day, and there should be other sources as well.Mtsmallwood (talk) 22:54, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be great if you could - University of Minnesota does not have McCurdy. There's a lot out there on the Karluck disaster and rescue: at least 2 survivors wrote books and McConnell wrote several more articles.  So far McConnell, Bartlet, and some secondary sources put Swenson on the King & Winge at Wrangel Island; the other survivor book does not say either way.  I have not found any source saying he returned to Seattle. Dankarl (talk) 01:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Correction: both survivor books have Swenson at Wrangel Island but McKinley spells it Svenson.Dankarl (talk) 16:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I found the assertion that Swenson returned to Seattle quoted from McCurdy on the Tacoma Public Library ships database. No indication of where Newell got it.  Since I've never seen a hard copy, I don't know whether there is a bibliography, notes, etc. which match sources with information. Anybody know? Dankarl (talk) 16:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * With McCurdy, you just have to go on faith. There are no notes or sources.  This is the source, I guess.  Generally in my experience it's been pretty reliable.  The topic is big, so don't expect too many details however. Mtsmallwood (talk) 04:21, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Modifications

 * Added infobox with USCGS photo of King & Winge;
 * Added citation to McCurdy for construction;
 * Followed Mtsmallwood in treating the 9.6 ft as depth of hold rather than draft but this is not entirely clear to me; McCurdy does not specify.
 * take a look at "King + Winge.JPG", the first of 4 pictures at http://www.fvoa.org/slideshowtest/k/myalbum.htmDankarl (talk) 15:02, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Added paragraph covering charter and fishing years approx 1915-1922 but leaving Princess Sophia as a separate section.


 * Added Hendrickson reference, National Independent Fisheries Company ownership and charter to Cape Flattery Pilots Association. History of ownership now basically follows Hendrickson up til the sale to the bank. McCurdy says she had "She had changed hands several times following her operation by her builders"; maybe there's no conflict if change of hands includes charters.


 * Added 1944 refit.


 * Added Swenson landing on Wrangell Island in Umiak;
 * Moved citation of McCurdy reference [in this sectionDankarl (talk) 17:22, 14 June 2009 (UTC)]to paragraph discussing different versions.

(Hopefully, someone with access to the book will pick up that redlink and do an article on McCurdy including errata and known controversies.)


 * Flagged the Clark & Olmsted story as citation needed.
 * Linked pilot boatDankarl (talk) 16:58, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Next steps
What can be found about ownership after 1962?
 * Possible lead: http://www.fakr.noaa.gov/appeals/02-0058.pdfDankarl (talk) 18:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

There is information on the web that she was working as a crabber when she sank, and that more vessels than the Coast Guard Cutter were involved in the rescue (photos). This in non-citeable due to copyright issues existing on that site and lack of source for photos and an anonymous email. How much of this can be confirmed in citeable sources?

Puget Sound Marine Historical Society has a clipping file and a video of the sinking.Dankarl (talk) 17:22, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Not trying to tell anyone what to do, but I'm in the Midwest and the needed hardcopy resources are in Seattle.Dankarl (talk) 17:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can make some inquiries, I know one of the Winge family descendants who may have some documentary information. Mtsmallwood (talk) 20:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

new material
Added material from Toomey, Pacific Fisherman, and Daily Astorian. Toomey's article says McCurdy's is sole source for entire Olmsted story, changed ref accordingly. Dankarl (talk) 03:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Dories; explanation for text removal
text removed from Lead: Built as a halibut schooner complete with 9 skiff/ dories for the type of small skiff halibut fisheries of the times. The dories were never used. a. not a complete sentence b. does not belong in lead c. needs source and an explanation of what was substituted when she was a halibut fisher. Dankarl (talk) 04:16, 18 September 2015 (UTC)