Talk:Kinshasa/Archive 1

History POV
The history section talks as if Kinshasa and the area was populated and became a trade center upon the foundation of the AIA station by H.M. Stanley. However there are strong evidences that the Southern area of the Pool Malebo was a major trade centre from the previous centuries. The Bateke moved from the Northern shore and traded with the Humbu. They alors heavily traded with the Loango and the Bakongo on the coast and with the Bobangi upstream on the river and its confluent. Even Stanley or Coquilhat mention this in their books. The village of Kinshasa, previous to Stanley, was already a big market. ---moyogo 01:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Current Events
Kinshasa is currently facing civil war. Rebel attacks are forcing people and children out of their homes. Most of these people die of lack of nutrition, disease, or rebel attacks. The Congo has been ranked as one of the top three worst places to be born. More children under age five die each year in the Congo than in China, a country with 23 times the population. As many as 30,000 children have been taken as slaves or soldiers. Only 1/2 of all primary-school-aged children go to school, and !/3 of the children under age 1 are vaccinated against measles. 31% of kids in the Congo are underweight.
 * I removed this paragraph at a time the Congo is not in civil war anymore. Please add the info in an acurate manner. --moyogo 07:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Kinshasa city or province? Skyscrapers or highrises?
This article is confusing to me because I got to this page by clicking on the link to Kinshasa in the _provinces_ box. Is it about the city only or about the province or both?

En tout cas, I think it's time we had separate articles for the province and the city: Kinshasa Province and Kinshasa (Capital) or Kinshasa (City). Any concurrence? Any volunteers?

Also, I don't think the Hotel Memling and SOZACOM buildings are technically skyscrapers (although it sounds so much better:) but rather highrises. Does anyone know the height of either? That would be the deciding point, according to the articles on skyscrapers and highrises. --DBlomgren 02:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Kinshasa is both a city and a province, that is using "city" in the sense used in British English and in Europe, to include all the suburbs. Kahuzi 21:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand that. My question is if this article is about the city and province. It seems to focus mostly on the city; therefore, it's kind of inappropriate for links to the province to link here. --DBlomgren 23:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The administrative Kinshasa is a city that has a status of a province. It has 2 rural municipalities. That's it. This article is about the city with both its urban and rural municipalities. --moyogo

I'm still confused, but in a good way:). I think I'm learning here. Are the city limits of Kinshasa (with its urban and rural municipalities) the same as the province limits? In other words, is it analogous to the city of Washington, D.C. filling the limits of the District of Columbia, so if you're talking about the city, you're also talking about the district (or in Kinshasa's case, the province)? If so, this article is not only about the city but also the province.

Or is Kinshasa province equal to the city of Kinshasa _plus_ two rural municipalities? Oh, I think I just found something: On this map of the communes in Kinshasa, the inset shows Nsele and Maluku. Are these the two rural municipalities you were talking about, Moyogo? And would you know if the light colored area in the inset represents the city, the province, or the city=province? --DBlomgren 02:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's how the constitution says it : "Kinshasa is the capital and the seat of all the national institutions. She has the status of a province" (Artcile 2). There is no "Kinshasa Province", there's only a city that has the legal status of a province. Kinshasa, with all its municipalities, rural or urban, is one city, and works as such. The only differences with other cities are: how big the city is, the mayor is a governor, the city has its own provincial assembly, etc. The maps of the municipalities only shows differents colors for style, they do not indicate a difference between Kinshasa city and Kinshasa province, since there is no province. Nsele and Maluku are almost totally rural. I'm not familiar with Washington, D.C. so I don't know how they compare except that Kinshasa has seats at both chambers of the parliement. ---moyogo 09:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Second-largest French speaking city?
Few DRC Congolese speak French well, and virtually none speak it natively. Kinshasa is primarily Lingala-speaking. The Francophonie says about 4% of Congolese are francophones réels, meaning that they have a good command of the language and use it in everyday situations, and a further 9% are francophones occasionnels  This is what this source says about the DRC:


 * Étant donné qu’environ 15 % des enfants accèdent au secondaire, le nombre des locuteurs fonctionnels du français demeure limité.

Compare this with metropolitan Montreal, where 91% speak French, including 69% who speak it natively. By either measure this is likely more than Kinshasa. The sentence should be reformulated in a way that specifies the meaning of "French-speaking". Joeldl 23:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure. But one must considers that the percentage of french-speaking people in RDC is likely much higher in the cities, specially in kinshasa. I'm not an expert, but I think that the role of french as a neutral language must be more noteworthy there, as kinshasa is the capital of a country which has more than 200 languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.97.213 (talk) 13:31, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Joeldl, your references are outdated. According to the last Francophonie Report (2006-2007), not available online unfortunately, a survey by the Department of French Litterature and Civilization at the University of Kinshasa revised the number of French speakers upwards. Now they estimate that 10% of people in the RDC are francophones réels, and 30% are francophones occasionnels. Also according to the Report, in the school year 2004-2005, 6,140,000 young boys and girls were enrolled in French-speaking primary schools in the RDC, 1,670,000 were enrolled in French-speaking middle and high schools, and 200,000 were enrolled in French-speaking universities.

Furthermore, as the anonymous IP above pointed out, in Kinshasa people are much more likely to speak French than in the provinces, so the number of French speakers in Kinshasa must probably be above 50%. Of course it doesn't mean they speak French all the time. The linguistic situation in Kinshasa is that of diglossy: people use several languages in their daily lives (a typical case: an African language with their family at home, Lingala with speakers from other African languages in the street, and French for official and business uses; oftentimes people speak a mix of Lingala and French; the more French you use, the more seriously people look at you from what I understand; I even heard garagists speaking with clients in French when they could obviously have used Lingala). Godefroy (talk) 23:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * First off, who's to say that the number of native speakers isn't the most appropriate measure? It's not obvious that we should be looking at other things.
 * But let's say we did. If reliable statistics can be found on Kinshasa itself, then it might turn out that there are more Kinois capable of speaking French at a reasonable level than Montrealers. If, say, half the people there speak French, that's a tiny bit more than in Montreal. But if those people spend most of their time speaking other languages, what does it mean that the city is French-speaking? Probably, the best thing to do is to rely on official status or something similar. All I'm saying is that it's fuzzy.
 * I would suggest this wording:
 * Kinshasa is often considered the world's second-largest French-speaking city after Paris, though much depends on the meaning of "French-speaking". Montreal retains this distinction at least in terms of the number of native speakers of French. Joeldl (talk) 12:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * First, "Montreal retains this distinction..." is not consistent with a NPOV, since it is not a "distinction" to be the second most populus French-speaking city: it is either a fact, or it is not. Second, Montreal is behind not only Paris, but also Abidjan and Lyon in population; thus if there's a "distinction" of being the second most populus French-speaking city, it belongs to Abidjan (if not Kinshasa -- which remains an open question).  Third, making a point about what city really is the second most populus French-speaking city is out of place in this article, although it would be useful to state why there is uncertainty about whether or not Kinshasa is a French-speaking city. In closing, it is odd that the primary language of the capital of the Deomocratic Repblic of the Congo (the official language of which is French) cannot be determined in a referenceable way.  This seems to be an urgent need for this article -- or, more specifically, it seems an urgent need to referencably quantify the linguistic makeup of the city.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rerutled (talk • contribs) 23:38, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

An academic reference by a demographer is needed for reference, to determine if Kinshasa should be considered a Francophone city. French, however, is the official language of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Kinshasa its capital; an anecdotal, unreferenced statement on the Peace Corps wiki states:

With more than 7 million inhabitants, Kinshasa is the largest francophone city in the world after Paris. It is the capital of the second most populated francophone country in the world, the Democratic Republic of Congo, where an estimated 24 million people (40% of the total population) can speak French (essentially as a second language). Contrary to Abidjan where French is the first language of a large part of the population, in Kinshasa French is only a second language, and its status of lingua franca is shared with Lingala. People of different African mother tongues living in Kinshasa usually speak Lingala to communicate with each other in the street, but French is the language of businesses, administrations, schools, newspapers and televisions. French is also the predominant written language.

Due to its widespread presence in Kinshasa, French has become a local language with its own pronunciation and some local words borrowed for the most part from Lingala.

These support classifying Kinshasa as a Francophone city. Rerutled (talk) 00:59, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The following passage confuses me: "Kinshasa holds the status of the second largest city in sub-Saharan Africa and the second largest[citation needed] in the whole continent after Cairo" If there is another city larger than Kinshasa in Sub-Saharan Africa, then surely Kinshasa cannot be any higher than the third biggest city in Africa, since it is stated that Cairo (NOT in the Sub-Saharan zone) is also larger than Kinshasa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.19.201.213 (talk) 10:01, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I clarified and simplified the statement to just say it's the third largest city in Africa after Cairo and Lagos. --Mᴏʏᴏɢᴏ/ ⁽ᵗᵃˡᵏ⁾ 12:41, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I have researched a bit and "francophone" means "french-speaking". I guess the author meant that Kinshasa is the second french speaking city after Montreal OUTSIDE France. However, the term francophone doesn't discriminate cities inside or outside of France. So technically, I'd say the biggest francophone city would be Paris and so on. What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.170.90.2 (talk) 01:55, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Kinshasa-Brazzaville conurbation?
Can one really speak of a 'Kinshasa-Brazzaville conurbation'? The River Congo that separates the two cities is very wide and is not bridged. Therefore I cannot imagine that the links and exchanges of people that are necessary for a conurbation are there. Booshank 20:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The Kinshasa-Brazzaville conurbation is often mentioned in the urban studies litterature, so that's enough reason for us to mention it. It's not our job to say whether it's a true conurbation or not. I note nonetheless that although there are no bridges over the Congo River, there's a lot of river traffic between both sides of the river. Cédric Kalonji on his blog from Kinshasa reported that during the presidential election he spotted an electoral agent with his official jacket on the other side of the river in Brazzaville running little business to get more money instead of doing his electoral agent job in Kinshasa . So as you see there are links between both sides of the river. Godefroy (talk) 23:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that using the the term "conurbation" is misleading - it tends to be used by people who are compiling "biggest" type statistics, and doesn't show any real knowledge of these two very divided places. Border controls are quite tight - it's not not like living in a European city in one country and popping across to work in another. I would say from experience, that they do not comprise a conurbation. Francis Hannaway 06:15, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Transportation
Something should be highlighted about the state of taxi-bus and other transportation. With such congested roads and huge unemployement cheap, plentiful transport is needed.. I waited for hours with friends at times for a ride.. the only thing that got them to slow down was seeing a Mundele waving for a ride.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.61.118 (talk) 05:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Penis snatching and Witchcraft
Like in Ghana, witchcraft is punished in this country: On April, 2008, Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of Congo, West Africa's 'Police arrested 14 suspected victims (of penis snatching) and sorcerers accused of using black magic or witchcraft to steal (make disappear) or shrink men's penises to extort cash for cure, amid a wave of panic. Arrests were made in an effort to avoid bloodshed seen in Ghana a decade ago, when 12 penis snatchers were beaten to death by mobs. --Florentino floro (talk) 06:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This random news isn't really appropriate for this main article. Please add info to Penis snatching on that topic. Thanks --moyogo (talk) 08:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Even better Genital retraction syndrome --moyogo (talk) 08:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Population of Kinshasa
Where is the 9.5 million number for the population coming from? The link to the source leads to a dead end; it does not work. The number seems suspect as an official number. This would make Kinshasa the largest city proper in Africa, bigger than both Cairo and Lagos, and that simply hasn't happened, yet. Someone change the number back to either the population of the city at the last official census, or at least to the last official estimate. --Criticalthinker (talk) 04:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, here it is a year later and the population keeps getting boosted, and the link to try and source the data is again not a live link. We also have to make a distinction between the population of the urban area and that of the physical boundaries of the city-province. --Criticalthinker (talk) 03:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

The numbers for the city-province and urban area are likely switched. 21 000 000 in the urban area and 10 000 000 in the city-province overall makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.88.22 (talk) 16:56, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Crime Rates
The article gives a number of homicides of 400 per 10000, which would mean that 4% of the population get murdered every year. The US site certainly does not support that number, which would mean few people live into their thirties....someone needs to check this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.242.123.150 (talk) 10:20, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

OK. So this is clearly nonsense. It's not backed up by it's source. If the homicide rates were true there'd be hardly anyone left, but the population remains stable. I have deleted this statement. i will try and find an accurate figure. Cheers. Molymicro (talk) 12:10, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I have found a source that states "Kinshasa’s homicide rate is estimated to be as high as 112 homicides per 100,000" that seems more plausible at 0.112% (http://africacenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/AfricaBrief-7.pdf) Molymicro (talk) 12:23, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Superlatives
Lagos is also sub-Saharan so the superlative statement makes no sense. Superlatives with multiple justifications would be better removed. Miglewis (talk) 17:09, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

capitals across rivers
The article says that:

"It is located along the south bank of the Congo River, directly opposite the city of Brazzaville, capital of the Republic of the Congo. This is the only place in the world where two national capital cities are on opposite banks of a river, in sight of each other."

I beleive that, on a clear day, Buenos Aires, across the Rio de la Plata, can be seen from high points in Montevideo and vice versa. In any case, no citation is provided, so at best it's original research. As such, the claim that it's "the only place in the world" should be removed unless a source can be found to substantiate the claim. 84.138.206.243 (talk) 16:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Is the Rio Plata a river or an estuary? Buenos Aires and Montevideo are almost 200 km apart, Kinshasa and Brazzaville are less than 2 km apart. The sentence could be rephrased but this unique situation is a fact. --Mᴏʏᴏɢᴏ/ ⁽ᵗᵃˡᵏ⁾ 18:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Anyway, to see something 200 km away you'd have to be more than 2 km high. --Mᴏʏᴏɢᴏ/ ⁽ᵗᵃˡᵏ⁾ 18:54, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Vienna, Austria and Bratislava, Slovakia are only about 50km away from each other (as the crow flies) - on opposite banks of the Danube. Both cities have a fair bit of hilly terrain in and around them, while the area between the cities is mostly flat and open valley. So it should be possible to see from part of one city to the other on a clear day.  Note that Devínska Kobyla is part of Bratislava and is 400m above the Danube Valley with a straight uninterrupted line of sight into Wien.  In any case, if no source can be found then the statement [that it's the only pair of capital cities across a river from one another where one can see from one to the other] should be removed.  Also central Rome, where the national gvt. is seated, is directly across the Tiber river from Vatican City,  Holy See.  84.138.234.47 (talk) 16:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

You are refuting the statement ‘This is the only place in the world where two national capital cities are on opposite banks of a river, in sight of each other’. That's 2 things: Number 1 could be rephrased adding ‘facing each other’, although it is _implied_ in this unique case. Number 2 could be rephrased adding ‘from the shore’ but this is also obvious in this unique case. Either way, the point of the statement is not to say that Kinshasa and Brazzaville are the only two capitals visible from one another from the highest point, but rather that they are the closest of them all, only 2 km apart, to the point where they are just sitting facing each other at the same location on opposite banks of a river and in sight of each other from those very same banks. I'm adding facing to the statement to make obvious to avoid future arguments. --Mᴏʏᴏɢᴏ/ ⁽ᵗᵃˡᵏ⁾ 00:04, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) the capitals are on opposite banks of a river,
 * 2) they are in sight of each other.

Dutch dropped as official language
I removed a sentence about Dutch being removed as the official language upon independence. I tried to find a source for this fact, and could not, and upon consideration, felt that it was not specifically relevant to the discussion of Kinshasa's history - rather, it might be hugely relevant to the history of the country. I felt that the next lines, explaining the city's name change were sufficient as stand-alone statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NhInsideWriter (talk • contribs) 02:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

City Proper
Question, though I know that the huge expanse of the province is governed by the Ville, which is made up of 24 different communes, is their a formal definition of a city proper? Has the city administration/government ever made a distinction between the urban communes in the city and the rural ones? Or, are they all thought of as, and governed, exactly the same regardless of whether they are part of the urbanized area or the rural area? Also, does each commune have it's own mayor, council, and administration? --Criticalthinker (talk) 11:08, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Population (third largest city in Africa)
This title is currently held by both Kinshasa and Lagos according to the wikipedia article. Is there anyone with an official population statistic who could define which rank Cairo, Lagos and Kinshasa hold in the most populous in Africa catefory? DeathVapour (talk) 20:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I looked at that the other day. It looks a little like apples and oranges. I did look a little bit, without finding any reliable source that ranks those cities in the last couple of years. -- Donald Albury 22:05, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I removed the bit about "if current demographic trends continue..." I know this material was sourced, but nevertheless no one says current demographic trends WILL continue, either in Kinshasa or in the cities to which Kinshasa is being compared. Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 23:28, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Infobox text at top of article
Currently, there is an error in the way the code for the infobox at the top of the article is written, causing the code to appear as a block of text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.220.13.86 (talk) 22:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

orphans being shot
Based on the provided citation, the line "there are recorded incidents of children being shot dead by police for minor misdemeanours" is misleading and pov. Misleading since it makes it sound as though being shot was the punishment for the minor misdemeanour, whereas the article refers to a police chase (and possibly other infractions). Also misleading since the article only refers to a single incident, not "children". And pov since the article mentions many other perspectives (the kid threw hot water on the policeman, was trying to steal his gun, etc.). Ie this is the Congo version of Ferguson. I am editing it but suggest its removal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snarfblaat (talk • contribs) 21:23, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Timeline of Kinshasa
What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 16:45, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

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Street children
This section needs updating, the numbers are at best 6 years old. The resettlement programs should be covered, not in detail, but with a temporal perspective (i.e. when they happened, when they stooped. Ideally a separate article is also needed.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:49, 21 March 2016 (UTC).

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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 * New-Map-Francophone World.PNG

Date of Transference
Multiple articles on the site reference the date that Kinshasa was made capital of Belgian Congo from the former capital of Boma. Many other articles reference it as 1926, but only this one references the correct date of 1923, according to Brittanica. However, there are other sources that say differently. This paper asserts it to be 1929, with reference to Lumenga-Neso Kiobe, of which Aux origines de la Ville de Kinshasa is likely to be the best best for finding out what they say. If anyone has access to any of these institutions' copies of this book, I would very much appreciate seeing when they declare this date to be.

Another source for 1923 includes Kinshasa: La ville et la cite, but which also unhelpfully makes the declaration that "Le transfert ne sera realise qu'en octobre 1929," (i.e. the transfer wasn't completed until 1929.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by IceWinds (talk • contribs) 07:59, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Highest city pop???
Since when did Kinshasa surpass Lagos or Cairo which have more than 20m people? Nlivataye (talk) 17:20, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between city population and metropolitan area population. The metropolitan areas of Cairo and Lagos might have more than 21m people, but not the cities themselves. Sjö (talk) 18:17, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

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