Talk:Kip Noll

Shouldn't we opt for a non-free image?
As Kip Noll is no longer alive, assuming this information is correct, we should consider adding a fair use image of him. __meco (talk) 12:59, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Verify death first then look to fair use image. -- Banj e  b oi   01:04, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Obituary
His death appears to be fairly well described in the Salt Lake Tribune: orig alt.
 * Thomas Earl Hagen, Salt Lake Tribune, 2001-05-24, The Salt Lake Tribune,
 * Thomas Earl Hagen, beloved son, father, brother, uncle and friend, died suddenly May 21, 2001, 12:49 am of a heart attack. He had been in the care of a program sponsored by the SLC Mission to help him overcome his battles in life. He had found Christ again. Born to George and Hazel Hagen in Greenwich, CT, August 7, 1957. "Tommy" loved the outdoors and was a skilled sportsman. Moved to Utah in 1983, married, Jill Fowler, fathered three girls, later divorced. He loved his family very much, although he wasn't able to grow and bond with "his girls", he would want his daughters to know that they were loved and will always be loved by him.
 * Survived by daughters, Elizabeth, JoAnna, and Clara of Price, his father George and brothers, Carl of Plattsburg, NY, Gary (Barbara) of Bountiful, Jerry of SLC, and Robert (Nikki) of Coraopolis, PA, his sisters Debra of Plattsburg, NY, Wendy (Roger) also of Plattsburg, NY, Cindy of Las Vegas, NV and many nieces, nephews, and friends. Preceded in death his mother, two brothers, George and Daniel. Memorial services will be held Saturday, May 26, 2001 at 2:00 p.m. at the Russon Brothers Salt Lake Mortuary, 255 South 200 East. "Tommy, we will always love you and though you are not on this earth, you will live on in our hearts and memories."

Perhaps this is sufficient to have a case for a fair use image or is there any doubt this is the same guy? I note that Hullaballoo Wolfowitz previously removed these references (diff) before the article was PRODded. Ash (talk) 08:00, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we have way too little corroboration of the claim that Noll = Hagen. The text that was removed from the article cited the Internet Movie Database "and other" sources. I don't think that is sufficient at all for having Hagen's name and date of death associated with this article. __meco (talk) 09:00, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Searching around shows quite a number of film related on-line sites that quote his real name. There seems no particular reason to doubt that this was him, though the guidance of PROVEIT applies, particularly when a number of editors are keenly policing these articles. It seems a little sad not to recognize Hagen for the cultural impact he had during his heydays but perhaps someone will find confirmation in a magazine or a video cover published back then. Compared to the accepted practice on most biographies (trusting the basic facts on IMDB for example), we seem to be applying a higher standard to gay porn star biographies, unfortunately this means that many well-known actors from the 80s that easily meet WP:GNG based on the number of films they are credited with, will have no recognition on Wikipedia. It still seems odd to me that a bio for a star such as Noll would ever be put up for deletion considering the wealth of material about him that a simple search engine test reveals. Ash (talk) 09:26, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you asserting that IMdB have rigorous checks in place to verify that the facts such as the alleged real name of gay porn star Kip Noll is correct? I have myself added information to IMdB entries and I know there was some sort of check in place before my entry was made public, but do we know anything about it? Specifically, do we know enough about it to reassure us that the information about Kip Noll's real name which our article currently promulgates is accurate? And also, even though there are several sources on the Internet claiming the connection between this Hagen person and Kip Noll, it's not at all hard to imagine that they could all stem from one original post and have been mindlessly copied ever since without any attempts at fact-checking. __meco (talk) 10:23, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Er, my assertion was about "basic facts". I would retain IMDB as a link for any relevant bio as some of the information is actually reviewed by the site even when user submitted (there is some WP guidance that explains this, but the link eludes me for the moment). Yes, one could imagine many things, including that information about his real name were totally fictional, someone sneakily promoted a credible name and that WP:CIRCULAR may apply. Reasonableness also applies and were the particular facts exceptional, then we would need to dismiss such sources as not being of sufficient "high quality". In these situations if other editors object then there is little question that (as I said before) PROVEIT applies and (as I said before) we just hope that someone can dig out a published article mentioning more of his biographical details that dates from when he was most in the public eye. Unfortunately there are very few public archives of 80s gay magazines and those that exist are poorly indexed and normally hold a representative sample rather than a comprehensive collection.
 * If anyone is researching for verifiable facts then the details of Kip Noll's Casting Couch (1983) may be illuminating, being a director for this particular film it is more likely that his real name as well as stage name would be officially credited. Ash (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree we have too little to say Tom Hagen =Thomas Earl Hagen = Kip (K)noll, etc. and that he married and died. This could be different people with the same names. -- Banj e  b oi   10:09, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I have now removed all information which is based on the assumption that these two names pertain to the same individual. We should hence assume he is still a living person. __meco (talk) 07:02, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced entry about living status of Kip Noll
The below should not be added back to the main page. People keep saying that Kip Noll is dead. Even if "true", per WP:V, such truth must be verified; without source, that "truth" shall be removed and not added back again. This has been discussed previously. I mean, who has access to the Stallion interview? --George Ho (talk) 09:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It appears that Kip Noll was actually Thomas Earl Hagen, born in Greenwich, CT, on August 7, 1957. The location and date correspond to information given by Kip in a STALLION magazine interview in 1982. In the same interview Kip stated that he came from a family of ten children and that he had three sisters and six brothers. Hagan's obituary, published in the SALT LAKE TRIBUNE on May 24, 2001, listed nine siblings by name, three sisters and six brothers, two of whom predeceased him. Hagan died of a heart attack at 43, while in the care of the Salt Lake Mission. He had three daughters by a previous marriage.


 * Even assuming the interview is verified, and assuming further that the source in question is reliable, unless the interview gives his real name, putting the obituary beside the interview is original research; WP:SYNTHESIS is not permitted. I have removed the prose. JFHJr (㊟) 22:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)