Talk:Kirishitan/Archive 1

Facts
I am not anti Japanese and this article is not about being Anti-Japanese. It is based on Fact. It is very famous in Japan especially in Nagasaki. Please remove the deletion vote. Thanks

Backup
Does anybody has anything to back up this website? Revth 13:43, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have corrected numbers and some misunderstandings. Mino-odori is punishment against refusing tax-payment, not for christian-huntings. The number, 1 million catholics/ all were killed is not recognized by historians. About half million catholics lived and about 4000 were killed is the well-accepted estimation. By the way, VfD about the page is over, but why so many people could vote to keep the page without checking the data. 'Japanese population was less than 1 million' '30% of the Japanese were catholics' '! million Catholics were killed'. There is no supporting reference. Is there a trend to create many 'Holocausts' to accuse some countries? I can easily create 'Australian-Holocaust', 'Tibetan-Holocaust', 'Eastern Turkistan holocaust', etc. It seems 'endless smear war'. Poo-T 03:38, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, voting to keep the page isn't the same as saying "I think the data on the page is correct", it's just saying "It's clear that this event happened in some form, we should keep the page so that the incorrect data can be corrected." I was able to do enough research to verify that there was some incident which is referred to by at least some reputable sources as the "Kirisutan Holocaust" or "Kirishtan Holocaust".  Unfortunately, I do not have the skills or resources to research and find where the current description of the incident is incorrect, so I wasn't able to correct the data. -- Antaeus Feldspar 05:05, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Population: According to Ikegami Eiko in The Taming Of The Samurai, "Miyamoto Matarô estimates that the population of Japan may have started from 12 million in 1600..." In addition, "Prior to the close of the Warring States period, ... Kyôto was the only large city in Japan with a population in excess of 100,000 at one point; 100 major castle cities were not yet in existence before the late-sixteenth century." In particular, the city of Edo "... claimed a polulation of only a few thousand citizens in 1590 when Tokugawa Ieyasu first became the lord of the region."

Kirisutan Holocaust started this time. I'm assuming this is where the source came from.
 * At least, your argument about population in Japan is true. Population in Japan is esetimated, 13 millions in 1600 >> 32millions in 1720. So, It would be reasonable to describe 12 millions in this text. The problem is about Christian population in Japan. In Japan, 0.4-0.7 million is the most accepted number of the population. 1 million is the number said only by christians in Japan. So the christian population rate would be 3-6%, not 10% using the number of population '12 millions'. Poo-T 00:46, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Disputed statistics are unfortunately part of many subjects. The best way to handle them is usually to include both sets of statistics, to state who believes that which set of statistics is correct and what reason they give for believing those are correct, and then the most authoritative citations for the actual figures.  For instance, check out how it's handled in the article on Satanic ritual abuse, a subject where one side argues that the correct figure is 40,000-60,000 annually -- and the other side argues that the correct figure is zero.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:36, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Disputed? Does anyone (other than the website itself) support it? If not, we don't need that link. We are not supposed to put an anchor at Shinto to a site that claims Shinto was originated in Judaism, I think. --Nanshu 17:17, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

First, I note that in the Religions of Japan page there is a section on Christians and their persecution. My feeling is that this article should be renamed "Persecution of Christians in Japan" or somesuch and integrated better with what already exists on the Religions of Japan page.

Second, I asked a Japanese history specialist what he thought of this article. He responded by sending me a load of information on Christians in Japan during that period. I don't have the time to turn it into something, so I'm just pasting it here wholesale in case anybody wants to work on it sometime. Mona-Lynn 18:00, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Portuguese Jesuits were the first to bring Christianity to Japan, Frances Xavier being notable amongst them. Their first contacts and primary region of converts were in the south-western provinces of Kyushu. A Jesuit named Father Gaspar Vilela made contact with Shogun Ashikaga Yoshiteru (last of the Ashikaga shoguns) and obtained license to move about freely despite a large number of protests from various Buddhists. Now, the Buddhists were the favorite of the Emperor of Japan (not the shogun who held actual power) and when Ashikaga Yoshiteru and his family were murdered the Emperor issued an edict expelling all of the missionaries. The history of Christianity in Japan seems to follow a cycle of getting permission, having a good go, getting kicked out, getting permission again. This edict was virtually impossible to enforce however as the Emperor had no real power with which to enforce the edicts. The Jesuits also had the protection of many of the very powerful Daimyo of Kyushu.

This period of Japanese history is pretty tumultuous as it sees the ending of the Ashikaga Shogunate in the late 1400’s, early 1500’s and the rise of the Tokugawa Shogunate in the opening years of 1600. In the interim there was a whole lot of fighting.

Oda Nobunaga was one of three great figures to come out of this period and begin the reunification of Japan (Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu being the others) Oda was at first quite open to the Christians. George Samson suggests this is due to the intervention of the brother of one of the western Christian Daimyo. It was also probably because of Oda’s long standing feud with the Buddhists of the country. At this time there were a large number of very militaristic Buddhist communities which were making his life very difficult. The primary centre of this was at Mt. Hiyeizan in north central Japan. A very large part of both Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi’s efforts of reunify Japan was the breaking of the power of these groups of Buddhists. In the end they killed many many thousands of the monks to do it. Ironically both Oda and Toyotomi considered themselves Buddhists and Toyotomi in particular funded the building of a number of temples and statues of the Buddha. (guilt?) At any rate, Oda probably saw the Christians as an excellent tool to use against the Buddhists, or at least a powerful economic ally with the Portuguese trade that went hand in hand with the missionaries.

Now, the Visitor-General Valignano (a Jesuit official who roamed around) estimated in 1582 (the year Oda Nobunaga was murdered) that there were around 150,000 christians. You can probably take his numbers with a grain of salt, but there were over 200 registered churches scattered throughout the country. The rapid spread of Christianity in Japan is not really a big surprise. The life of the peasant sucked some serious ass. Really. They didn’t have a very good time of it, especially in this period when banditry was endemic and wars were being fought on their land every couple of years. Also, the religious beliefs of the day were quite varied and generally did not exclude the adoption of yet another God. The faith probably existed (like it did in much of Europe for centuries) hand in hand with preexisting folk religions and beliefs.

The warlord Toyotomi Hideyoshi succeded Oda in power after some political wrangling. At first, Hideyoshi acted favorably towards the Jesuit missionaries, entertaining them and even helping them build a church near Osaka castle in 1583. Several important posts in Hideyoshi’s government were filled by Christians. (this is the guy that the book and movie Shogun are based on by the way)  However, this took a very drastic turn in 1587. After an interview with a Jesuit official named Coelho he suddenly issued an edict expelling all foreign missionaries form Japan within 20 days. He accused the Christians of engaging in the same types of meddling activities as the Buddhist monks of earlier years. He also listed a host of other ills, some trumped up, others probably more or less true. Nobody really knows the exact reason that he issued the edict, especially at this time though there is a fair amount of conjecture. This marks the first time that the Christian missionaries went underground. After the edict, most of the missionaries retreated to areas where they were welcome (such as the official foreign port of Nagasaki which they more or less ran) and continued their works. At this point (1587) it is supposed there were around 300,000 christians, mostly in the western provinces. The edict wasn’t really enforced all that much, except for some sporadic crackdowns. The most notorious of these was at Nagasaki where 26 people (7 franciscans and 19 Japanese followers) were tortured, mutilated and then crucified. (on a side note, the Japanese had been big fans of crucifixion long before they heard about Christianity)

Moving along, Hideyoshi dies in the late 1500’s and Tokugawa Ieyasu takes over after a brief civil war. At first he is lenient with the Christians (protestants as well by this point with the arrival of the Dutch), but in 1614 decides to rid Japan of all foreigners and their foreign religion. He destroys all of the churches in Edo (Tokyo) and exiles a number of high ranking officials who were known to be either Christians or supporters of Christians. A number of commoners were killed in these crackdowns, though as far as I can tell the numbers were not very large at all. There are reports of entire villages of Christians continuing on after this point with their beliefs, though they were careful to be discreet about it. It is supposed that provincial lords (daimyo) would sometimes be aware of this, but so long as they caused no trouble they were generally left alone. Problems did arise between Buddhists and Christians however. In one incident, an old Christian man attacked and desecrated a Buddhist shrine in his village. As a result a number of people were executed and the rest made to ‘trample the cross’ to prove their innocence.

So to sum up, as far as I can tell the persecution of Christians was based far more on political circumstances than any real problem with the religions tenets. There was certainly a great deal of tension between the Buddhist leaders and the missionaries and this led to a number of persecutions after the various edicts were passed. The total numbers of those killed as a result of these persecutions is impossible to say but is probably not that high (relatively speaking), certainly not on the level that whoever wrote that article is claiming. Importantly I am not including those killed as part of the various rebellions in the western provinces which were led by Christian daimyo. If you add those in you would be looking at a couple of hundred thousand probably. But that was more a military situation than religious persecution so I don’t think it’s really fair. And of course I could be totally wrong in all of this. Maybe there were massive crackdowns that never made it into the public records and are only known about through folklore. I don’t know, but it’s unlikely.


 * That's excellent; it also sheds some light about where the very large figures for the number of Christians came from. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:15, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I completely rewrote the article. Although the previous version was really hopeless (Kirisutan must be Kirishitan. Oda Nobunaga never became shogun. etc), I tried to respect it. I moved the list of excecuted men to Martyrdom of the 26 Saints of Japan because it looks too specific. --Nanshu 17:17, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hmmmm, was it a good Idea to remove completely?
I read this article before and it was interesting. Was it necessary to remove it completely? We should have had a vote or something I think....

---

Although this article is somewhat informative, I do take issue with the statement in the last section "In contrast, Christians attach a great importance to martyrdom probably due to the nature of Christianity." I would just like to say that, if the author wished to confine himself solely to the realm of "Fact", he might be more loath to indulge in his personal opinion of the "nature" of Christianity.

Non-neutral language
"Although missionaries who actually worked in Japan left realistic and secular analyses, the Kirishitan history compiled by Catholics is based on a religious interpretation. They tend to ignore economic and political affairs. They set religious activities against secular affairs and even map them to good and evil. Traditionally, the "purified" church sources were used to study Kirishitan history. The situation has been improved drastically as a lot of primary sources became available to researchers.

Non-religious researchers find it difficult to treat martyrdom as history. Instead of giving detailed accounts, they just point out the rate of martyrdoms; there were a thousand martyrs at most whereas the number of Christians at their peak is estimated at 500 thousand. In contrast, Christians attach a great importance to martyrdom probably due to the nature of Christianity."

I think this isn't very neutrally written. It appears to be coming from the POV that the Catholic viewpoint is wrong or very flawed (may be, but hardly NPOV). - Ta bu shi da yu 03:34, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm could use NPOV revision.
This is a very fascinating period of history, but this article fankly stinks.

The tone reads like it was written by a Japanese nationalist who is trying (and failing)to politely reply to Christian polemics. Encyclopedic it is not. Not that the 'facts' are wrong, but it suggests far too much. Just about every questionable action of the Japanese govt. is excused, while every possible nefarious plot of the devious Catholic missionaries is speculated on. As previously noted, it quite non-neutrally discounts Catholic histories. Despite what the article says, the members of the Shimbara rebellion are NOT considered martyrs, precisely for the fact that they took up arms. In any event, the revolt was over taxes, not religion. Although many of the members (not all) were Christians.


 * I have made several edits, removing a few statements that I know to be falst and changing the tone.  Of note:  1.)The references to the San Felipe incident I have removed because The words put in the Spanish Cpt's mouth by the previous author I have never heard. I understand that he threatened Japan with conquest by Spain, and it was the Japanese government who then became suspicious to the missionaries as foreign agents. If you have references that state otherwise, please provide.  2.) References to European mistreatment of Japanese in the Trans pacific Slave trade.   Trust me, there was absolutely no trans pacific slave trade in the 17th century. 3.)I also removed a contradictory statement regarding the banning of Samurai from converting to Catholicism.   Other minor edits to improve NPOV.  I will try to work on some more of the unsourced statements.--Minguo 16:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Re-added San Felip incident after research showed the original author had the basic story right, only going a little overboard. ;-) Minguo 20:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)--Minguo 20:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * General readability edits and expanded the background. I removed the reference to the Portuguese king and the diocese of Funai, because in 1588 there was no king of Portugaul.  The country was ruled by the Spanish Monarch from 1580 to 1640.--Minguo 20:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)Minguo 20:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Christianity in Japan post-Meiji Restoration
I came here in a so far fruitless effort to find something in Wikipedia on the Kyoudan, or United Church of Christ in Japan, or on the history of Christianity in Japan since Meiji in general. The treatment of Christianity at Religion in Japan is woefully inadequate. This article, for all its failings, is far more informative, but it stops short of the period I was looking for. Shusaku Endo probably ought to mentioned in both articles, FWIW. --Haruo 08:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Wasn't he a 20th century writer? If so, his relevance to the current article is pretty low. If we expand it up to the 20th century (and make this more of a Christianity in Japan article) then certianly. Minguo 20:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Project Assessment
I was pleasantly surprised to see the length and detail here, as well as the number of images. However, there are two major things still missing: (1) References need to be cited. (2) A list of, or section/paragraph devoted to, Christian daimyo. LordAmeth 21:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Xavier - Slave Trader?
Despite the claimed attribution from a recent Japanese book, I am very dubious about the claims that Francis Xavier was involved in slave trading, particularly of Christian girls! I would support Minguo above, in that the tales of a trans-pacific slave trade are incredible. Particularly the idea that half a million baptized Japanese girls were traded for gunpowder. (This at a time when fewer than 200,000 baptized Christians existed in Japan. This seems to me like total nonsense! Xandar (talk) 16:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

How do I cite a source by absence? At university I took an Japanese history course with a high workload, and read from many sources about Christianity in Japan. Nowhere was this nonsense saltpeter or a slave trade mentioned or even remotely suggested. How is one supposed to "prove" that these incredibly ridiculous supposed events could not possibly have happened? It would be like trying to prove that King Kong did not actually climb the WTC in 1955--good luck trying to find a source for that I am tempted to just wipe the entire section in one edit. 128.135.192.49 (talk) 17:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and no source at all was provided, so I've deleted the section. Jpatokal (talk) 10:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Oops, there was a detailed source provided for the "50 slaves per barrel" claim, it just wasn't in the right place. So I've restored that, but snipped out the 500,000 bit which seems really hard to swallow... Jpatokal (talk) 10:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The Jesuit mission received an annual share of the profits of the kurofune (black ships). Only in 1613 did a new order reached Japan from Rome forbidding the participation of the missionaries in trade. There are very clear and direct references to slavery relating to Hideyoshi's decision and so if you university course did not mention it, I would ask questions why.

This is a bit of a non-sequitur but Hideyoshi was said to have been able to move an army of between 120,000 to 230,000 across to Korea around the same time and there is no suggestion that it was only Iberian ships involved in the trade but contemporary records of Japanese slaves around the Holy Roman Empire do turn up, specifically during The Japanese mission to Europe in 1582-1590. I do not know the specifics of the trade or numbers. --60.42.252.205 (talk) 17:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "500,000 baptized girls" would not only exceed the total number of Christian women in Japan even if the highest estimates are used, it would also amount to some 10% of all women in Japan at that time, given a population of about 12 million and considering that some of those are children and old people. Not bloody likely.
 * I should also add that the author of the book this is originally taken from ("Rosary" repeats the claim) was Tokutomi Sohō - a right-wing propagandist who was considered a class A war criminal by US occupational forces - on the eve on WW2. I would at best consider it a highly dubious source.82.83.197.231 (talk) 16:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)