Talk:Kirkandrews, Dumfries and Galloway

Copyedit, St Andrew, map
Hi, I did a copyedit pass. One part I was confused about is: is the Northumbrian St Andrew different from the St Andrew who came by sea from Ireland, or is it one Northumbrian St Andrew who came by sea from Ireland (hitting the British Trifecta?), and is/are this/these St Andrew(s) the same as St Andrew the Apostle, patron Saint of Scotland? Overall, it looks great! Are they still holding that fair? Asking for a friend. Le v ! v ich 06:04, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , thanks for the review, much appreciated. The 'saint' question is a bit vexed. McCulloch (a local author, but not an academic historian) baldly states that it was "dedicated to a Northumbrian saint, Andrew". I don't know where he gets that from, and I can't find anything about a Northumbrian saint called Andrew. I wonder whether there's some confusion with Saint Acca, who was a Northumbrian, is possibly associated with Galloway, and who is reputed to have brought relics of the apostle Andrew to Scotland - but that's my unsourced speculation. The two 19th C writers aren't specific as to the saint - they just say that Saint Andrew arrived from Ireland at this spot. They seem to imply that it was a person who disembarked from a boat, but it's worded ambiguously and I can't rule out the possibility that they're referring to the relics of the apostle arriving here. I've found another source (early 20th C, not in the article yet) which refers to a living Irish saint called Andrew, who founded a church and named it after himself, but the more recent scholarly sources seem to indicate that this is all folklore: they say there definitely was an Ionian church on the site, but both building and name have been lost, and they reckon that a new church was built and dedicated to the apostle Andrew, the patron saint. I'll keep looking for sources that might allow me to nail this down a bit better, agree that it could be more informative.
 * The fair, sadly, is no more - but I'm thinking about rekindling that flame! I'll let your friend know if it gets off the ground... Girth Summit  (blether)  10:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey - I added some more stuff, and expanded on the name as far as I could go. Your section header above mentions 'map', but you didn't comment on the map - was there something you wanted to say about that? Girth Summit  (blether)  16:20, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I think the expansions look good. As for the map, I was going to suggest a Template:OSM Location map like at St Rufus Church, but when I tried to mock one up, I couldn't get it to work for Kirkandrews. Le v ! v ich 18:39, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , hmm. I might try to play with maps a bit more, it would be good to get a zoomed-in map to show the detail. Trouble is, it's so small, it really needs to be very high-res to show anything - we're talking about a single street with maybe ten buildings here, it's not a big place. If you click on the canmore link, which has some aerial photos, you'll see what I mean. Girth Summit  (blether)  23:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, here's a start, taken from OSM Location map. It's not displaying for me on the page, and when I click on it to get the full screen, it shows the map OK but there are no useful details. I'm not sure how to fix it. Le v ! v ich 00:06, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , yeah, I'm not sure that really adds anything - it shows the road, but none of the buildings. I can see whether I can dig out an old ordnance survey map that's out of copyright. It will be out of date of course - things move fast in Kirkandrews, there's been two new houses built since 1850 - but it might give the reader a sense of the layout. Girth Summit  (blether)  00:17, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * LOL - just noticed that your map puts a bus stop nearby. I never knew there was a bus stop there - I've never seen a bus on that road, and there is certainly no physical sign of a bus stop, but perhaps each St Lawrence's day the ghost bus drops off a bunch of incorporeal revellers... Girth Summit  (blether)  00:24, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Citation
The following statement from the article is not supported by footnote appended to it:

n the 13th century, the barony of Kirkandrews was granted to Robert de Champaign, brother to the constable of Roxburgh Castle Ralph de Champaign. Robert ruled the area from a substantial nearby stronghold, the earthworks of which survive and are known as Roberton Motte.[20]

Footnote 20 links to a Canmore entry that in no way supports the notion that Roberton Motte can be attribute to Robert de Champaign. The full entry at that link is :

Event ID 725631 Category Descriptive Accounts Type Archaeology Notes Permalink http://canmore.org.uk/event/725631

NX64NW 3 6036 4857. (NX 6036 4857) Roberton Moat (NR). OS 6" map (1957)

This motte rises abruptly from the SE bank of the Pulwhirrin Burn. Its lower portion is apparently rock, on top of which the motte has been made up and levelled, rising 18-20' above the bottom of a surrounding ditch. The summit is roughly oblong in shape, measuring 91' E-W by 44' transversely. From the side of the burn on the NE and some 6' above the water, a deep trench, partially rock-cut, carries round the hillock to the opposite side, about 10' deep below the counterscarp, and 40-50' wide across the top. At the SE angle, a hollow leads up out of this ditch to the higher level.

RCAHMS 1914, visited 1911; R W Feachem 1956; F R Coles 1893 Roberton Moat is a motte generally as described. The hollow in the SE angle is a later mutilation. Resurveyed at 1/2500.

Visited by OS (RD) 2 February 1971.

Can anyone find a link that supports this sentence? Comes.amanuensis (talk) 02:37, 28 January 2022 (UTC)