Talk:Kirkcaldy/Archive 1

Shopping and Leisure - Peripheral Locations and Proposed Developments
This section is far too large and minutely detailed for the main Kirkcaldy article. Despite a barely resistible urge to obliterate much of it, would a solution be to start a separate Shopping and Leisure in Kirkcaldy article, incorporating the current The Mercat Shopping Centre article, for those who regard this material to be of worth, then slim down the section under Kirkcaldy? Or is it the axe? Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

since i created the Kirkcaldy Town Centre sub-section (including The Mercat Shopping Centre), i thought it was important to show what Kirkcaldy has to offer, but seeing since other articles including neighbouring Glenrothes and Dunfermline mention their shopping centres, i didn't see why Kirkcaldy should include theirs? truth is, in fact The Kingdom Centre, Glenrothes now has a seperate article with a caption and a few references, but info. about the Kingdom Centre is still there on the Glenrothes [article.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenrothes]   you allow that, but you don't treat The Mercat with any regard because references are harder to trace and hence there's no website unlike Kingdom.

i have tried my best to find as many references in the Kirkcaldy Town Centre sub-section for proof to not only please you but also people on the board (whoever they may be).

Mutt, have you ever been to Kirkcaldy or come from the town? i'd like to know. i wrote those articles to get more respect for my hometown and am very proud of my efforts. (and yes my name is Ian Thompson, 'cept i don't have a "p")

i am a decent, kind and considerate person and i don't want to become a victim of your harsh threats so please be a bit more reasonable to me. the precise detail is because of my slight asperger's syndrome where the brain thinks differently to others. people with asperger's like to have routines, obbessive interests e.g. knowing all of the UK's railway stations, mannerisins including the use of varied language in written text or speech and having a good memory amongst things. sadly, most people don't appreciate this and find it very annoying. please don't you take this like that (and i mean it) which is the reason why i left in the first place because i felt i wasn't getting a fair piece.

however, i must ask most of all, what "do" you (and others) want to see done about the Kirkcaldy article. should it chopped down, altered, parts of removed or completely re-written? i think whatever the outcome, it deserves more pictures don't you think? the town centre sub-section does look bland without any pictures. i for one would like to see more pictures on the Kirkcaldy article. what about a picture of the Sheriff Court and the High Street

i have though accepted the problem with the Railway Station over the car park chargingSilverburn (talk) 03:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Linoleum
I'm slightly confused by some of the information in the Linoleum section, when you compare it with the information in the Linoleum article. e.g. here it says Michael Nairn invented it or started producing it in 1847. There it says Frederick Walton patented his formula in 1860.

I'm guessing that Nairn's factories dated from 1847, but can't have been producing Linoleum that early, and converted to it sometime after it was invented, around 1860.--duncan (talk) 09:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

i was the one that wrote the Linoleum sub-section in the Kirkcaldy article. i found my information from http:/www.thefifepost.com/. Silverburn (talk) 03:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Leisure Park
'' Kirkcaldy may soon be home to a leisure centre on Haig Park at the back of a Caravan Park on Dunnikier Way. There is a process going on at the moment, digging out coal in the area, before the building work will commence. The centre is scheduled when open to contain a new swimming pool, cinema, bowling alley and at least two restaurants.''

Is there proof of this? Thomson, is the site you refer to Kingslaw- the land adjacent to Mitchelston Industrial Estate, the A92 to Glenrothes and the Standing Stane Road to Leven (see link )? If it is Kingslaw then substantial housing and employment is planned for the site. Not leisure. All leisure is to be focused in Kirkcaldy town centre as is stated in the Fife Structure Plan 2006-2026 and the Kirkcaldy Area Local Plan 2003.

i have since removed this since i realised it was false information. (and yes, i am Thomson) Silverburn (talk) 03:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Derivation of the name
It is stated that the name "Kirkcaldy" is thought to come from Brythonic "caer" (rendered in modern Gaelic as "cathair"), Brythonic "caled" (which would probably have been "calet" at the time: meaning is "hard") and Gaelic "dùn" (as in Dùn Èideann [Edinburgh], Dùn Dè [Dundee] etc.). This is not very likely, as "dùn" and "caer" mean much the same thing (e.g. Welsh for "Edinburgh" is "Caeredin"). More likely, it seems to me, is that the name derives entirely from pre-Gaelic sources (e.g. Pictish and/or Brythonic) and is more likely to come from something like "caer" (fort, camp) + "caled" + "dynion" - or, indeed, "caledonii" - where the latter elements mean either "hard men" or "Caledonians" (which could, indeed, amount to the same thing). (idea from John Morton of Markinch)62.249.253.69 (talk) 11:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It's actually pretty common to have place-names containing the same word in two or more languages: List of tautological place names. Local examples are Knockhill (hill hill) and Puddledub (puddle puddle) and the Inch- and -y/ie of Incmickery and Inchgarvie both denote island. Is your theory original research/speculation or have you a citable source? If the latter it would be worth adding. I think I have another citation for the caer-caled-dun theory which I'll add alongside the Kirkcaldy Civic Society one if I can dig it out. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

personally, i've always thought Kirkcaldy's name comes from the church of the culdees. i don't really believe (or am convinced) otherwise it is derived from Welsh words. seriously. Kirk is a Scottish word for a church and caldy for the culdees. Scottish history is being destroyed here, why would they have a church in this town known as the Old Kirk (with a history going back to the 16th century or therefore), if the name of the town didn't come from the Culdeen church, which it obviously does? think about it. stand up for the truth of the history of this town if you want it to be appreciated and cared for properly for the sake of Scotland Silverburn (talk) 03:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Linoleum Trade
Why, oh why, oh why, oh why did someone delete this? i have struggled to even remember exactly what i had wrote before. anyway, a big mention of the linoleum is an important aspect of this town AND SHOULD NEVER BE IGNORED OR ABUSED! the removal of this was a pointless and stupid move done by Mutt Lucker. probably, Mutt Lucker who has been taking advantage of making a fool because of my unfortunate condition (i have slight asperger's syndrome) and blaming me as a result since my work happens to be detailed and precise to the point, PEOPLE HATE IT! Mutt, is this for you, do you really take pleasure in thinking people with asperger's/autism as idiots who don't know any better, BECAUSE I THINK YOU DO, SECRETLY and why do you bully and harrass me, determined to control me as if i'm a threat to myself. I CAN'T HELP IT and as a result, you are denying my freedom of speech and thought on this very website. all i ask you is to grow up, appreciate that not everyone thinks the same as you and respect what i am doing to help improve the article maybe as a kind gesture, you and others can go find nice pictures. if you delete it, i will put back in again, and again, and again, and again until i get a little bit of respect on here. do you understand! 80.192.80.184 (talk) 12:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Please stop making accusations and AGF. As I said at your new user page I have been busy but will try to reply to you soon at greater length. Incidentally it would help if you consistently edited under your username to keep track of your edits and comments. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * So let's keep it in, but it needs to be rewritten a bit, for clarity. Let me see what I can do.--duncan (talk) 19:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

thank you very much for your kindness, duncan. that's fine with me. (my vocabulary and sentence structure isn't that good and you can address it better than i can) but i just felt that removing it was wrong 80.192.80.184 (talk) 22:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

General reply to Silverburn/80.192.80.184
I've responded to some points made above by this user but as this is part of a more general message and not particularly pertinent to the Kirkcaldy article itself I have placed them on his user talk page. Mutt Lunker (talk) 02:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Reconstruction of the Shopping and Leisure sub-section
i believe that the shopping and leisure sub-section is now too big and should be downgraded since it is taking too much space. i would preper if it was rewritten as a more compact sub-section.

what do others think? Kilnburn (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. Should the section be split into it's own article, with just a brief section here? I'm not sure it justifies that.  A big rewrite would be welcome, too much information about things like the history of shops, as well as their relative locations etc. --duncan (talk) 21:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

no, i agree the article isn't worthy enough to be spilt into it's own article. i have been looking at The Mercat Shopping Centre article you have here via a link and think it would be a good idea to keep this, by submitting some removed text into that article instead with a good picture of the Centre or even a logo to add like they have on the Kings Gate page in Dunfermline. thank you for your confirmation and i'll get that sorted right away!

p.s. i have noticed that i have spelt preper with two 'p' instead of one. never mind Kilnburn (talk) 12:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

right, i have now cleaned up the Kirkcaldy Town Centre article into a more compact sub-section. it's much better, but i will need to find references.

with the Mercat, i have also cleaned up the article. there is now no mention of The Mercat except for it's name and a link on the Kirkcaldy Town centre sub-section. the only mention of Kirkcaldy's lost streets can now only be found on The Mercat page.

i would like you or mutt to check to see it's all right and if not, then let me know. thank you Kilnburn (talk) 13:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

i'd like to say thank you to whoever put the sentence (s) that described Kirkcaldy as having the largest town centre in Fife and being sub-regional centre to complement what i also wrote. i didn't think this info existed. Kilnburn (talk) 10:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

General
Who is the "Wizard of Balwearie", I find this explanation of the origin of the School's name highly unlikely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.148.132.113 (talk) 00:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Michael Scot, the "Wizard of Balwearie" is a well known myth/legend (IIRC there is a mention of him on the tourist information sign at Kirkcaldy railway station), although accounts of him and his deeds vary - I think there is some controversy over his actual identity. He is | said to have lived at Balwearie Castle outside Kirkcaldy (OS ref NT25169040). IMO it's more likely the school was named after the castle/locality rather than the man - the castle is less than two miles to the west, as the crow flies, from the school. --LM82 12:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I went to Balwearie and there was never any mention of a wizard. We were told that the school was named after the castle and that the houses (Seafield, Rossend etc) were named after other castles in the area...
 * Also, some of these articles I found on the web state that there is no information about where the "wizard" was born or raised and that it's only speculation that it was even in Kirkcaldy. Besides which, even more of the articles (and there are a lot) also state that he could turn sand into rope. Well, since that's obviously impossible how can we trust any of the rest of the information?

195.153.45.54 12:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The article merely states that Michael Scot "is associated in local tradition with the castle" etc. which is uncontroversial, whether the tradition itself has any factual basis or not. It doesn't claim he actually lived there or was actually a wizard, which would clearly be more controversial. Neither does it claim that the school is named after him. I remember him being mentioned at school on numerous occasions but as much in terms of the historical character as the mythical wizard.
 * That said, it's maybe not of sufficient relevance to the short section on the school in the Kirkcaldy article and could be moved to the main article on Balwearie School (which currently makes no mention). Mutt Lunker 14:33, 28 September 2007

(UTC)

although i was the one that wrote the little info on the High Schools (based off the idea on the Dunfermline ones) somebody else changed it, so i am not responsible for it. personally, also an ex-Balwearie pupil. i'm not surprised! the School is not promoting Michael Scot and i never heard anything about him nor where the name of the school came from, when i was there. i believe the school takes the name Balwearie from him Kilnburn (talk) 10:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed retail development, Nairn Street
I've noticed in the main article that it states that this has been refused. In fact the application hasnt been determined yet.

[] 195.27.12.180 (talk) 13:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

that's fine. since i was the one who started it in the first place. i have struggled to find much info on this (hence having no sources on this and thus was deleted originally) and am very grateful that you have found this. thank you. Kilnburn (talk) 15:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Famous People
", as well as local 'it-boy' Iain McInnes" - who? Never heard of him, and 'it-boy' doesn't really give any indication of why he's famous, if at all. --duncan 10:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

"It is also widely rumoured that former Soviet weight lifting champion, Michael Andrew Simpson(1985-) was born and raised in the Templehall area of Kirkcaldy before emigrating to Minsk, an issue which the Russian Sporting Authorities have vehemently denied (more information on this can be found at http://wcs.com.ru/dobrsportobsh.php)." - removed. I'm pretty sure this is another non-famous person, and the link to the source takes you to a Russian-language page that I suspect doesn't mention him at all. Unless someone wants to find a reliable English-language source... --duncan 06:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Alexie Medvedyev former world champion and USSR national coach; Robert Roman former national coach and professor at Moscow State University and Yuri Verkhoshansky, whom is considered "the foremost authority in the world on speed - strength training", all stated that Michael Andrew Simpson, known to Russian media as Kosnicharski,was from Красноярск (roughly Krasnoyarsk). At the risk of upsetting anyone, perhaps it is better left out.


 * is that a translation of that page, or just your information? what's the source on all this?  A Google search on Kosnicharski returns exactly 2 results, only one of which is about a weightlifter.  But it talks about a Bulgarian, not Soviet/Russian/Scottish.  --duncan 07:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry I cannot provide more information on the issue, I am one of the least qualified to do so. However, what I will say is that "kosnicharski" is merely a latin alphabet (ie as in english) translation of the original cyrillic name and as such may not be the term used by media using a latin text such as the media in the west of europe and the americas.- Петр

At least mention Marjorie Fleming (1803 - 1811).

as far as anyone is concerned. i'm wasn't in the best of moods when Michael Nairn (1804-58) was absent from the list until my recent edit. i am also dissappointed with many sentences starting with "It" and "In", i think the people on this discussion board can come up with much better words to start sentences, don't you think?

i also support new admissions onto the list which are currently absent. i don't think Gordon Brown should get as much attention as he does (he doesn't even come from the town, that info. should be on the Giffnock page!) Silverburn (talk) 02:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

i'm sure i see somebody that has been obmitted from the famous people section. i have a book about him, i'm going to have to check Kilnburn (talk) 22:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Victoria Hospital-own page
does anyone believe that the Victoria Hospital deserves to be given it's own page in the mode of Hayremyres, Aberdeen Royal Infirmery and Monklands. maybe the current information in this article can be shortened then?

what do others think? Kilnburn (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, the ARI article seems like a good template. In fact, all the NHS Grampian pages seem like a good idea for extending to the NHS Fife hospitals. --duncan (talk) 21:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

right, i'll get that sorted then and keep only what is neccesary in the Victoria Hospital sub-section Kilnburn (talk) 12:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

i haven't started this yet, because i want to find more information about the hospital and want to decide how much i want to keep in the Kirkcaldy article itself, but i will be soon. maybe today Kilnburn (talk) 11:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

the new Victoria Hospital article is now in place. just to let you know Kilnburn (talk) 11:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

....and some new info has been added with sections also in place. plan to further extend the article when i can (and i will probably think about doing one for Queen Margaret in Dunfermline too) Kilnburn (talk) 22:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Adam Smith Theatre, Music, Kirkcaldy Museum and Art Gallery and Kirkcaldy Central Library merger
to clean up part of the article, should the following merge into a new section. i agree though with a brief mention of them in the shopping and leisure section. what do others think? Kilnburn (talk) 00:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC}

right, i have merged the small music article with the Adam Smith Theatre article to create a Music and Theatre article. some unneccesary info involving performers was removed from the Adam Smith Theatre article, it's not important. i have re-written the article since i wasn't happy with my previous work.

also both the Central Library and Art Gallery & Museum have been moved into the shopping and lesure article (they're in the town centre anyway) and have been re-written. the proposed relocation sub-section has been removed and has been reduced to three short sentences

P.S. i have even added new info to the public parks section including a mention of Ravenscraig Castle, although retaining the previous info. Kilnburn (talk) 19:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Coal Mines and Pottery industry
is it such a good idea to include the importance of Kirkcaldy's coal mines such as Dunnikier and Seafield and pottery industry in the Gallatown, Pathead and Dysart?

what do others think? i'm planning to downgrade the shopping and leisure sub-section since i feel it is getting too much attention when they are more important things than this. Kilnburn (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

maybe, it would be a good inclusion in the proposed extended history section i may plan to do Kilnburn (talk) 15:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC) 15:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

i have found some info on this and plan to include it when i can get the history section re-write up and running Kilnburn (talk) 20:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Pictures
i've always thought that Kirkcaldy has a lack of pictures and am asking on request for more pictures on the article, preferably the sheriff court, high street, site of the mercat cross and M&S store. since i live in the town, i would love to do, only i could. if Greenock has plenty, i don't understand why Kirkcaldy can not have more, maybe we could understand the nature of the town better that way.

what do others think? Kilnburn (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll see what I can do--duncan (talk) 21:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

since i live in the town, i'm seriously thinking about doing it myself (and i have been a bit concerned about it). i know where to go and know exactly where all these places are. i might have a bit of difficulty getting a photograph of Ravenscraig Castle, because that is a further away from the town centre, i could do it but it would be at least a 40-45 min walk from the High St to get up there because it is nearly in Dysart. i'll probably do it next week, if i can and upload them onto wikipedia commons (if that is the place for your pictures) Kilnburn (talk) 20:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

right, i have taken some pictures today. these include: Sheriff Court, Bus Station, Railway Station (from both sides), Museum and Art Gallery and Central Library (as best as i can)

i'm actually really proud of my achievements.

now since i have never done this before, how and where do i upload my photos (the ones that are accepted)? i believe it may be on wikipedia commons Kilnburn (talk) 14:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There's two places. One is the Commons; this is perhaps more useful for images that you want to be generally available.  The other is just to upload them directly to Wikipedia (but not the Commons).  I usually do the second option as it seems simpler, but that's just my preference.

If you opt for the second, just click on 'Upload file' over on the left-hand side under 'toolbox'. It should then walk you through how to do the rest, but give us a shout on my talkpage if you get lost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duncancumming (talk • contribs) 18:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

History of the town
i am the only one who believes the article on the history of the town can be improved Kilnburn (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No! Please go ahead and be bold! --duncan (talk) 21:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

i'm first going to gather up sites and do the research, before i write one word Kilnburn (talk) 20:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

found evidence of which i'm going to use more or less, but the introduction of the article does contain some info about the history, so i'm writing to confirm removing some of this so it can be placed where it belongs, before i get into trouble for doing so (it happened when i removed something from Glenrothes, that i didn't approve of, they were not "certainly" not happy about it) Kilnburn (talk) 20:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

right, what i have done here is completely re-written (this will be met with controversy) the history article as best as i could, but have retained Modern Kirkcaldy sub-section. it might not be as long as you were expecting since i have struggled to see where it could go and with the current length of the full body article as it is.

you must give your opinion on what i have done and see if you're happy with where i am going with this and where the flaws may be. i may include a Coal Mines and Linoleum sub-section later on depending on the outcome. Kilnburn (talk) 21:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion regarding recent edits
A discussion regarding edits made today and yesterday is here. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Town Centre
There has been criticism considering Tesco's size[citation needed], in that, considering the big population area surrounding Kirkcaldy, such as Glenrothes and Levenmouth, that a new store should be built on the outskirts to compensate this, preferably a Tesco Extra on the boundary of the retail park extension.

Is there really a need for this personal view on this page or is this an actual fact? Does this person speak for everyone in Kirkcaldy? Does the person realise a very large new Tesco Extra Store is proposed for Glenrothes Town Centre?


 * No source given, so I assume it's their personal opinion. Please strike the sentence from the article if you see fit. It's weasel-worded ("there has been") and pov ("preferably Tesco Extra"). --duncan 01:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well i was the preperator who wrote that. well, that's old news now, Tesco decided that building a new store in Glenrothes "obviously" wasn't a good idea, but now plans for an Extra store near Dunfermline City Centre. i've always firmly believed Tesco are ignoring Kirkcaldy and it is this town that should be getting the Extra store, preferably built between Glenrothes and Kirkcaldy. the population surrounding this town is at least 150 000, nearly the size of Jute Mill City (my own nickname for Dundee) Silverburn (talk) 02:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

oh but guess what i've heard. Tesco are "still" interesting in opening in Glenrothes alongside the current Morrisons, a new ASDA and Sainsburys (one of their largest in Scotland). Falkirk (which i've been to) i know has all four. but let's face it other than Glenrothes, you've not got much in the catchment area (including Leslie, Markinch and Thornton, Windygates, Kennoway and Levenmouth being the biggest place itself, but part of it is closer to Kirkcaldy) Falkirk i can see why since, although it is much smaller than Glenrothes it is at the centre of a large population area with Stenhousemuir, Grangemouth, Larbert and Bo'ness on it's doorstep and also caters as far as Cumbernauld.

although i can see ASDA working in Glenrothes, i think Sainsbury's should pull out of this and think about opening their first store in Ayrshire, Perth, Inverness, Dumbarton or Dumfries. these places should have Sainsbury's Kilnburn (talk) 11:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

''Why dont you let Sainsburys make their own decisions instead of always puting your tupence in? They wouldn't move to Glenrothes if they didnt think they could make money and they're not likely to pull out of what will be a multi-million pound deal based on your opinion. They'll probably draw folk from other affluent areas such as Cupar and the north east including Falkland, Freuchie, Ladybank etc. Hey if they can survive in Kirkcaldy and Leven then they can definately survive in Glenrothes.217.171.129.72 (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

here, here. what about bits in North East Fife like St Andrews and Anstrucher? are these residents exactly going to go specially to Glenrothes for Sainsbury's (sure the nearer branchin Dundee is out of the way on the route to Arbroath)if they are further away. yes, you have made a point of people flocking from Falkland, Freuchie and Ladybank but they aren't very big places and they together only produce at least 10 000, but the thing is, we'll see how successful this "development" is when it opens.

mind you, some Glenrothes residents aren't exactly happen over the controversial move of Glenrothes House and YMCA. and that's that. Kilnburn (talk) 19:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

''Glenrothes House isn't moving its just being torn down, I don't think many people will lose sleep over losing it its a seriously ugly building....? What about the parts of North East Fife like St Andrews and Anstruther? People in Anstruther would use the Leven Sainsbury's. People in St. Andrews shop in M&S because theyre all posh!''

''As I said, Sainsbury's will have done the maths and if they weren't gonna make money they wouldnt move to Glenrothes. Sainsbury's in Kirkcaldy doesnt exactly have the most upmarket catchment, its draw includes Cardenden, Lochgelly and Cowdenbeath, cant think that theres many wealthy people in those places...'' 217.171.129.78 (talk) 20:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Kirkcaldy reconstruction plan
i have recently pondered, a major overhawl of the Kirkcaldy article, particularly the introduction and history sections.

as part of my plans would be:

a re-write of the introduction with some of the current existing info moving into the history section

to create a new introduction summary for the history section to link better with the sub-sections for wider info, concerning each of the town's former glories and by adding some new history-sub sections including: whaling, saltmaking, linen and Kirkcaldy Harbour. existing sub-sections like linoleum trade and coal mines will be extended. i would like for this to become the major focus point of the article.

removal of possibly three sections: Media, employment and Politics and Regional Information. i don't think it is worthy keeping them, since they are preventing the history section from including this info and i also want Kirkcaldy to be unique and not carry the same old sections. i think maybe it would be better to move the political subdivisions in politics and regional information into the modern Kirkcaldy sub-section because it is an important mark of the recent history of Kirkcaldy. the Kirkcaldy Police Station picture will be moved into the pictures section and a mention will be made in the historic buildings paragraph in Modern Kirkcaldy. with Media, there isn't a great deal of info, which can be moved into Modern Kirkcaldy, along with the history of Fifeshire advertiser, which if had been included in the media section, might of looked out of place. facts and figures in employment should be removed, as well as the largest employer and such should be mentioned in Modern Kirkcaldy.

possible move of some sections which might include Famous People between Churches and Pictures

minor work on both education and transport, concerning Kirkcaldy High School and Kirkcaldy Railway Station.

i do though have difficulties though, having slight asperger's syndrome which is why i have come here so users know.

i know these plans are radical, but i want people on the board to know that the article is in desperate need of a revamp and i believe the article can look and feel a lot better if this occured. i would not doing this for myself, but for the sake of the article and the better apperance it would have. the work will be carried out in stages (probably six) and a revamp tag will be hopefully placed on the article and they will be posted on the discussion for inspection so that the work is all right, before i even dare...... . anyone is welcome to suggest things or assist me where possible. i'm not the world's finest speller or very good at sentence structuring or a very good vocabulary of words. Kilnburn (talk) 00:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

just to keep you up to date, phase one of the plan will soon be uploaded onto the discussion board. Kilnburn (talk) 23:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Kirkcaldy revamp (Phase 1)
here is a rough draft of phase 1. this will include a new name sub-section (like what Perth, Scotland has) and history section (with two sub-sections: the birth of the lang toun and growth and development of the lang toun to start off with)references are noted in brackets, although the "Kirkcaldy Burgh Records" does not have a ISBN number (i was using this book in the reference area of my local library and apparently is one of only c.500 printed, how i'm going to get around this, i don't know?)

Name

Since records have began, Kirkcaldy probably cites the name, after the culdees (of the Keldei, frequently mentioned in the old charters) to whom have been stated to come from cell (hence maybe from Gaelic roots such as Kil or Kin) ( The Statistical Account of Scotland, 10th edition, by R.G. Cant, The Scolar Press Ltd, 1978, ISBN 0-7158-1000-3)

History

Birth of the lang toun

Although, it has been noted that there was probably habitation in the area, surrounding the modern town, from the remains found, right back to the bronze age. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X) Malcolm II was responsible for donating “the shire of Kirkaladunt” (as it was known) towards the end of the 11th century (1095) (page 33, Kirkcaldy Burgh Records by L. MacBean) to Dunfermline Abbey. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

David II of Scotland, acknowledged a charter for “the schyre of Kircalethin”, alongside surrounding areas to go into ownership of Dunfermline Abbey in 1128. Another charter was devised in 1130, allowing this to go ahead. Pope Alexander III, was sustenance about the role of the church of Kirkcaldy going under the control of Dunfermline Abbey. The church, known as “eccl. De Kirkldin” was undertaken by the bishop, being preserved by either St Patrick or St Brisse.

The first mention of the modern town name was in 1304, when addressed by the abbot and convenant of Dunfermline to advise King Edward I, upon bringing a market along with a fair at the octaves of Easter. Edward gave permission in 1305. (page 33, “Kirkcaldy Burgh Records” by L. MacBean, “The Fifeshire Herald”, 1905) Robert I also, granted the town with burgh status (page 33, “Kirkcaldy Burgh Records” by L MacBean, “The Fifeshire Herald”, 1905) during his tenure between 1306 and 1329. (page 2, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X )

Burgess-controlled trade, religion (Abbots Hall) and royal patronage (Ravenscraig Castle), were once the main focus of attention in the original boundary. (page 52, “The Kingdom of Fife” Second Edition by Glen L. Pride, The Rutland Press, 1998, ISBN 1-873-190-492)

When David II of Scotland, gave the ownership of the burgh, to the monks in Dunfermline Abbey in 1365, it became known as one of Scotland’s ancient burghs. The abbey though, later returned the burgh back to the bailies and community by 1450. (page 144, “Fife in History and Legend” by Raymond Lamont-Brown, John Donald Publishing, 2002, ISBN 0-85976-567-9)

Growth and Development of the lang toun

According to evidence, the modern Kirkcaldy harbour was founded around the mid-15th century. (page 5, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, ISBN 1-84033-052-X) Arguably, there is belief though, the area may have been home to a harbour, going back to the Dark Ages, but this information is unknown. (page 5, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, ISBN 1-84033-052-X) The harbour, by the early 16th century, was thriving and quickly became vital for being the backbone for the growth of the burgh surrounding the harbour, Main Street and Tiel (West) burn. (page 144, “Fife in History and Legend” by Raymond Lamont-Brown, John Donald Publishing, 2002, ISBN 0-85976-567-9) This growth, was a result, of the harbour having “a sheltered cove round the East Burn”-being a good location for boats. (page 51, “The Kingdom of Fife” Second Edition by Glen L. Pride, The Rutland Press, 1998, ISBN 1-873-190-492) The harbour even dealt with shipbuilding, until this was phased out in 1645. (page 99, “Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration” by Kirkcaldy Civic Society, The Francis Firth Collection, 2005, ISBN 101845677498)

However, the town became a target, with the huge investment recently gained, by the Queen Regent’s French troops, (page 17, “Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration” by Kirkcaldy Civic Society, The Francis Firth Collection, 2005, ISBN 101845677498) which under the order of Mary of Lorraine, allowed the burgh to be burnt to the stake in 1559. This had been due to a rift over the gradual rise of Protestantism support, across important burghs in Fife. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

The population of the burgh had grown to 3, 147 by 1616. (page 2, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X) Around this time, the burgh forged a deal with the Baltic countries to rely on the import of flax and hemp. Flax had become non-existent in Scotland, by that time, which the Baltic had a sufficient demand of and also at a good price too. (page 35, “Kirkcaldy’s Famous Folk: Volume 3” by Kirkcaldy Civic Society, 2000, ISBN 0-946294-24-0)

Kirkcaldy was considered for royal burgh status in 1644 by Charles II and as a gesture, bequeathed 8 acres of land-the remains of which now form the Volunteers Green. However, the status was marred by the loss of the charter and the date, when the status took place, is sadly unknown. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

Although, difficult times ahead, threatened to beset the development of the town. The battle at Kilsyth in 1645 for the war of conventating (1644-65) (page 2, “Old Dysart and East Kirkcaldy” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-8403-3051-1) saw the loss of 200 men and a civil war caused another 480 deaths in 1650. The harbour, even suffered, as many as 58 ships were believed to have been destroyed, during the civil war. The scenario, by 1656 meant that now only half of the townspeople owned ships in the harbour, of the twelve that remained. (page 18, “Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration” by Kirkcaldy Civic Society, The Francis Firth Collection, 2005, ISBN 101845677498) The town council insisted that with a limit of 500 merks, a new burgess had to built a least one ship, as a desperate measure to combat this loss. However, the town was still plighted by a serious debt crisis, in excess of £500 pounds, nonetheless. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, IBN 1-84033-052-X)

The town suffered another trauma, being burnt down for a second time, and this time was done by Highland Jacobites, under the order of McIntosh in 1715. Nevertheless, this did not prevent the beginning of the textile industry consisting of both linen production and a handloom weaving industry in the area. A dyework appeared on the scene, around 1785 and Lockhart’s and sons, soon followed, opening what was the first linen factory in 1789 in nearby Linktown and in Fife for that matter. (page 25, "Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North & West" by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

The shipbuilding industry was also resurrected, which by the end of the century, had built in total: 26 square riggers, one sloop and two ferries. (page 2, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

Construction of a turnpike road from the pettycur ferry to Cupar and beyond was submitted in 1790, as part of a major focus to improve Fife’s isolated road system, also helped strength Kirkcaldy’s position. (page 4, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North & West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

please leave your comments, since i need to know how many will favour my radical plans. i have tried my very best to present something that is worthy and decent. Kilnburn (talk) 22:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Layout
Just a note pointing out the WP:UKTOWNS style guide, which would be helpful in addressing some of the lists and layout issues during the current expansion of the article. :) --Jza84 | Talk  01:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Defoe/Lang Toun
Quoting Defoe saying the town was “one street, one mile long” is a far cry from showing his responsibility for the nickname "Lang Toun". Please cite this. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

some copyediting required/citation problems
After the recent vast overhaul of this article, it's hardly surprising that there is the odd bit of copyediting required. In the main nothing drastic but it could do with a few more eyes cast over it. I see there have been a few already.

Partly to this end I made a small start at checking some refs from the impressively large number of new inline citations. I'm rather concerned at the high proportion of (good faith undoubtedly) errors therein. It's possible that the passages I have looked at are not representative but the majority contained at least some degree of misinterpretation, misquotation, misplacement inline (either giving credence to more than is said in the citation or in one case referring to entirely the wrong sentence) or apparent (probably unintentional) attribution of facts not actually stated in the cited text. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Additionally, there are some instance of repetition of subject matter in different parts of the text, some of them pretty much contradictory to each other. For example, theories regarding the derivation of the town's name. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to say I concur with these concerns. I was most alarmed at a (sourced) claim that a "Aiden, king of the Picts" won a battle in the locality, when there was no such king of Pictland (I fixed it to Dál Riata - the kingdom being at its territorial zenith at that point, hense its Kirkcaldy connection). As you say, there is a high proportion of miscredence that needs to be tightened up to ensure total verifiability (thus making for a better article). --Jza84 | Talk  02:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

good article nominee/removing tags
Removing pertinent tags from an article to make it look better for good article nomination will not flag any potential reviewers to the issues addressed by them. This article still has copyediting and citation issues and the tags should remain until they are addressed. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I also think that a formal peer review would be more helpful to the development of the article than a Good article nomination. --Jza84 | Talk  14:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

citations and copyediting
I would agree that progress has been made to the article but having made some spot checks on a handful of the citations and their relation to the text, I'm concerned at the continued level of misquotation, misinterpretation and confused expression of many of them. Additionally, it's apparent that much copyediting is still required. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)