Talk:Kirkcaldy/Archive 2

citations, still
I'd just like to reiterate that, in addition to the matters listed above in the GA review, there has been little substantial improvement in regard to concerns regarding citations, expressed above in August. Whenever I lay hands on a publication listed in the references section and compare the citation with the text of the article there is, in the majority of cases, some level of misquotation, misinterpretation and confused expression, often substantially so. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

In reference to the above, why has the "citecheck" tag been removed?

Have the citations been checked out and verified as fair representations? Almost every time I lay my hands on new examples of the material cited in this article I find that it has been misinterpreted and misquoted in the article (track my edits in this regard over the last few months). I simply am not able to track down all the cited material, both from the point of finding copies or the resources to shell out for them all. I have thus not been able to check the majority of the citations for this article. From the experience of those that I have checked I have serious doubts about the credibility of those that I haven't been able to. Surely a tag can't just be removed to allow the article to attain good status when the matter at hand hasn't been addressed? Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I have checked the article history which, as you state, provides a detailed record of your improvements to the clarity and precision of the article. The readability of the article has improved considerably since I started my GAR and I believe it meets the criteria of a GA; however that does not mean that the article is incapable of further improvements. In view of your earlier comments I intend to carry out further checks/verification/improvements, where appropriate, based on what I considered to be more reliable sources than those used to date; and that starts early next week. I intend to borrow a copy of the Third Statistical Account for the County of Fife. If you want a reliable source, I suggest I borrow a copy through your local public library (that's if they have not been sold off as there are quite a few ex-library Third Statistical Account's on the market at present). If there is a conflict between what has been written using a source than you cannot obtain and what is written in a WP:RS more reliable source, then the more reliable source can be given preference.


 * From a GA perspective, the "problem" is that you have doubts about the credibility of the citations that you have not checked; but that is all. The onus is on an editor making an addition is to provide a citation; uncited additions can be challenged and/or removed. The article is compliant in that respect. Perhaps the way forward is for you to itemise that statements that you consider to be of doubtful credibility.Pyrotec (talk) 20:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad to know that you will be carrying out further checks on the citations. A vast quantity of hard work has been done on this article, largely by one editor and I very much applaud his considerable efforts. I have noted an impressive improvement in the quality and accuracy of his editing, and in the choice of more reliable sources. However, there is still a notable tendency to - unquestionably in good faith - misquote, misinterpret or inaccurately paraphrase the source material. I am concerned that the removal of tags and conferment of good article status on the article will give unjustified credibility to much material which cites sources while not accurately reflecting them.

In regard to listing the citations that I have doubts about, as there is such a vast number of citations in the article it would be easier to list the ones that I have been able to check as this list would be shorter! Even for this list, as there has been continual revision to the article, the sections which I was happy with immediately after I had made my revisions and edits may well have changed considerably in the interim. If it's helpful, I will try and provide a list when I get a chance. Until I can be more comprehensive and to give you a start, one publication which is relied on heavily as a source and which I have not been able to track down (I believe it may be out of print) and therefore not been able to check the citations is Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

just like to say, that i'm proud to see the upgrading of this article from B to GA status, largely down to my efforts. although, i have tried my very best to make sure that the information resembles what is said in the source(s) (and if i haven't done this very well in this article, i have started to do so in other articles like Raging Bull) anyway, the book in question, Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration is out of print (since this was part of a series of history books released by Ottakars who if you know where taken over by Waterstones a while back) and i believe is very rare and hard to find. luckily, i rented a copy of the book (that was obviously doing the rounds around Fife) in the main library in Kirkcaldy. to finish, i would like to say thank you to you, Mutt Lucker who convinced me "the hard way" that wikipedia is not a place for shop references which encouraged me to help improve the quality of the article. it has been very hard for me and rather frustating, but this has been worth it (next time, i won't be taking this long!) Kilnburn (talk) 19:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Congratulations on your hard work. I'm convinced that the article is a GA-class article, but that does not rule out further minor improvements. Yes, in the last ten minutes I've tracked one copy down in Hereford; and ordered it. Francis Frith was a 19th century photographer, so I guess it is a book of old photographs with writing. I hope to have the Third Statistical Account for the County of Fife on loan tomorrow.Pyrotec (talk) 19:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Description
This article would cover all Fife-related articles such as places, famous people, museums, football and rugby clubs and churches to name a few. Examples would be: Kirkcaldy, Andrew Carnegie, Adam Smith, Dunfermline Abbey, Dunfermline Athletic, The Old Course and Kirkcaldy Museum and Art Gallery. This could also help support articles that really do need a lot of work while keeping general maintenance. Examples would be: Methil, Dunfermline, Cupar and a lot of the smaller towns such as Kennoway and Lower Largo. Please see the discussion at WikiProject_Council/Proposals. Kilnburn (talk) 16:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

tags on recent Landmarks section edits
"The only street in Kirkcaldy to keep its original character is Kirk Wynd." This is simply not true. There are scores of streets that retain character of the era in which they were built to at least the same extent as Kirk Wynd. They may be from a later period but they still retain their original character. What does the cited text say precisely?

The tags I have placed regarding the expression "the top of the town" have each been removed. They have partly been addressed by adding citations but the last one was a and I've also said in the edit summaries that I'd like to know what is meant by the expression. It could be interpreted to have various meanings; possibly the highest point in the town (it may have been the highest in this part of the town but there are parts of comparable or higher altitude in Pathhead, Sinclairtown and Gallatown, by then incorporated in Kirkcaldy); the most northerly or furthest up the coast - evidently not the case here; the swankiest bit..? Again, what do the cited texts say precisely?

The tag for clarification on the word "verculunar" was removed without any explanation given. There is no such word so presumably something else was intended. It has since occurred to me that vernacular may have been intended. Is that correct? --Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Please capitalize correctly in the captions
e.g. norman square. I've come here because of peer review, but my comments can only be partial and informal. Smallbones (talk) 18:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

History - 1304 naming discussion?
Mention is made in the cited Eunson of the Abbot of Dunfermline seeking permission for a market and a fair but nothing of the supposed naming of the town deriving from this (presumably) correspondence (unlikely to be a "discussion"). From memory (I've lent my copy), Torrie & Coleman doesn't say this either. If I'm correct, this synthesis of the two matters is thus invalid in relation to at least two of the three citations. Possibly Brown The Fife Journal p.82 alone mentions this naming discussion but I can't track down mention of this publication, let alone a copy. (Does anyone have the text, or at least further details of the publication?)

Aside from the fact it list versions of the town's name from earlier than 1304, Taylor and Márkus' recent and scholarly The Place-Names of Fife, Volume One would surely mention such a significant event as this supposed 1304 naming. It doesn't. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Have checked Torrie & Coleman and I can confirm that there is no mention of the town's name being adopted as a result of this discussion. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Geography section
Kirkcaldy has a rich heritage of sandstone buildings from the town centre stretching out to Victorian suburbs around Victoria Road, Abbotshall Road and around Dysart. Yet most of the reference in this section is about development that has taken place in the 20th century. It would be good to get some pictures of victorian terraces or showing flats above shops with a reference of the built form of the town.82.133.117.123 (talk) 15:04, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

i have found it very hard to locate info before mid-20th century on the development of the town. (this is because at the time when i was adding the geography section, this was the only info i had gathered) i do know however that there are a lot of Victorian/Edwardian houses both in and around the town centre, but my knowledge isn't very strong on this. if you wish to do this, then i suggest you read the Central Kirkcaldy and Abbotshall conservation area document within the Fife Council website (that had a bit about some of the construction of Victorian and Edwardian buildings from 1820 onwards). for pictures, Whytehouse Avenue, East/West/South Fergus Place or even Victoria Road would be good ones. remember though, please include references.Kilnburn (talk) 22:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

History queries
Was the last Kirkcaldy whaler really called (French) "Brillant" or was it in fact (English) "Brilliant"?

Was the town invaded (then left as the forces moved on) or was it occupied in the Jacobite rebellions? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:13, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Recycling items
Is there any value in having or requirement to have such a comprehensive list of items which are recycled (under the Public Services section), or indeed any list at all? Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:23, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

"Kirkcaudy" in Scots?
On what basis is the form of the town's name in Scots given as Kirkcaudy? Surely Scots for Kirkcaldy is just Kirkcaldy. There is presumably no difference in pronunciation, with Kirkcaudy simply being slightly closer phonetically. It's not a spelling I've ever seen and even if it is valid is surely just an archaic alternative spelling rather than a supposedly more Scots version. Can anyone cite it as a spelling and as somehow more Scots? Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It was added again so I've reverted. The Place-Names of Fife (see the Bibliography section) lists thirty-three historical literary references to the name from 1128 onwards, almost all spelt differently and none of them spelt Kirkcaudy. The first instance of the spelling Kirkcaldy is 1539, when everyone was speaking Scots and not English. Scots for Kirkcaldy is Kirkcaldy. Mutt Lunker (talk) 07:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

...appears to originate from a needless and spurious invention at the entry in Scots. Mutt Lunker (talk) 08:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There has been a similar edit at Falkirk but I'm ill equipped to argue the point as my knowledge of Scots spelling is limited. Akerbeltz (talk) 09:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

In that instance the edit is valid; the intrusive l in Falkirk is a late over-correction under the influence of English, so Fawkirk is correct in Scots. The l in Kirkcaldy is a valid (if now silent) remnant of the earlier Pictish form of the name. I think the Kirkcaudy edit was based on the Scots wiki deciding that for some strange reason Kirkcaldy is "English"(?) and they ought to make up a new spelling, supposedly in Scots. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Thanks, good thing I didn't wade in! Akerbeltz (talk) 12:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The spelling's back, thanks to this sometimes dubious list. Unfortunately it has an official stamp but whilst professing to restore older Scots forms it seems at least in some cases to be inventing new orthographies to replace historical Scots forms. Per above, of the 33 spellings of the name through history listed in the rigorous academic publication The Place-Names of Fife, "Kircaudy" is not one of them. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:14, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * By the Middle Scots period l after a had become vocalised (except intervocalically and more often than not before /d/). Nevertheless, l remained in use as an orthographic device to indicate vowel length. That was a merger with what Adam Jack Aitken describes as vowel 12. The Modern Scots spelling convention of that usually being au in medial positions and aw in final positions. The l in Falkirk is, however, unetymological and results from an Older Scots spelling where l was used to indicate the long vowel in the word Faw (variegated, of various colours). The use of au in Kirkcaldy is, whether justified or not, simply a spelling using the Modern Scots convention. 91.5.50.78 (talk) 11:56, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

However, on Wikipedia it wouldn't be our place to introduce a new spelling simply because it conforms to the modern Scots convention, if that spelling is essentially not in use. Kirkcaldy as a spelling has been in use for the last 5 centuries and has been the standard one for at least the last two, in Scots (and latterly also English). It's almost as if the standard name is somehow therefore regarded by some as being "English" because it's official, when it's in fact formed in Scots, of Pictish origin. The novel spelling in this one document can't outweigh pretty much every other mention of the town to make it the spelling in Scots. Possibly a spelling, but then only if it is made abundantly clear that it is very much a minority, or suggested modern, form. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:50, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Some requested comments
When this article's FAC was archived in July I offered to look it over in advance of its next FAC nomination. I've started on this; here are my comments on the lead and History section; they are rather extensive. I have also done small copyedits and punctuation checks as I've gone through:-


 * Lead issues

*The lead is supposed to be a very broad summary of the article's principal content, so it's not necessary to be so precise about Kirkcaldy's location ("9.3 miles (15 km) SSE of Glenrothes, 11.8 miles (19 km) ENE of Dunfermline, 44.4 miles (71 km) WSW of Dundee and 18.6 miles (30 km) NNE of Edinburgh"), when this information is given exactly thus in the article. * There is further overdetailing in the lead, with such detail as "The street later reached a length of nearly 4 miles (6.4 km)..." As a recommendation, I suggest that you edit the third and fourth paragraphs into a single concise paragraph as follows:-
 * Early industries in the town included the production of textiles, nailmaking and salt panning. During the 19th and 20th centuries, Kirkcaldy became a leading producer of linoleum. The town expanded considerably in the 1950s and 1960s, though the decline of the linoleum industry and other manufacturing restricted its growth thereafter. The town is a major service centre for the central Fife area, home to numerous retail, cultural and leisure facilities. Adam Smith College has two campuses in town (St Brycedale and Priory). Employment is  dominated by the service sector; the biggest employer is MGT (a call centre), while other major employers  include Victoria Hospital, Forbo-Nairn (floor coverings), Kingdom Bakeries (food and drink), and Kingdom Homes Ltd (residential and nursing homes). Changes made

*Incidentally, by "MGT" do you mean "MGt.plc" as described here? If not, what does MGT stand for?

*Inappropriate italicisation: shire of Kirkcaladunt


 * History

At approx 1800 words, this section is only marginally shorter than the main article History of Kirlcaldy, which rather misses the point of having subarticles. You should look for ways of summarising some of this content, particularly in the longish 16th/18th century and Modern history sections * Toponomy: you need to attribute the sources which state that certain derivations are incorrect. Thus: "An interpretation of the last element as din (again meaning "fort", but from Gaelic) rather than –in is incorrect, according to Taylor and Márkus's history of the place-names of Fife.[2] The Old Statistical Account states a derivation from culdee, which has been repeated in later publications,[3][5] but Taylor and Markus deem this also incorrect."[2] *"Two charters, later confirmed by his son, David I, as Kircalethin in 1128 and Kirkcaladunit in 1130, do not indicate the location of town or shire." I can't make sense of the sentence in its present form. Is the intended meaning something like: "Two charters, confirmed by Malcolm's son in 1128 and 1130, David I, refer to Kircalethin and Kirkcaladunit respectively, but do not indicate their locations"? *"under occupation" should read "under English occupation" **"was soon given" is unnecessarily vague **"whom belonged to the Abbey" → "all of which belonged to the Abbey" **"Although, it is unknown when this harbour was established and whether or not it was always located at the mouth of the East Burn." This is not grammatical. Remove "Although", and the words "or not" **"The National Covenant was subscribed in the town in 1638..." What does "subscribed mean", here? **"the output of linen increased from 177,000 to 316,000 yards" - does this refer to annual output? You need to specify. **It would be useful to give a date or year for the sailing of the Earl Percy **Clumsy phrasing: "These once-separate communities which had effectively merged into the town, were once forbidden from selling their goods in Kirkcaldy at the mercat cross, according to the old guild rights". Make it simple: "These formerly separate communities  had  once been by forbidden by the old guild rights from selling their goods in Kirkcaldy". **"Prior to the construction of the sea wall, the sea would wash along the shore..." Yes, that is what the sea does! What was wrong with that?
 * Medieval history
 * Dates should generally be given at the beginnings of sentences rather than the ends ("In 1304, while Scotland was under English occupation, the Abbot of Dunfermline appealed to King Edward I for a weekly market and annual fair for Kirkcaldy.")
 * "...may have been referred to as one of the most ancient of burghs". Say where it was thus referred to, and use quotes instead of italics.
 * "feu-ferme" has been wikilinked in the lead, but I recommend a further link here
 * "33s 4d" needs explanation. I don't mean current value, but at least show it in contemporary format (£1.67)
 * Sixteenth to eighteenth centuries
 * Consistent format required, as between "19th and 20th centuries" in lead and the written-out form used here. This applies to other sections also
 * There are further punctuation issues, and more inappropriate italics - I don't have time to point them all out.
 * How did cotton spinning support industries such as coal mining and salt panning?
 * Modern history
 * "In 1831 Kirkcaldy was described as..." By whom?
 * Why "sixteen" and "thirty-eight" rather than 16 and 38?
 * You have based your updated values on Measuringworth's RPI indicator. This is not the recommended indicator for the updated costs of capital projects such as the construction of docks and piers. However, I am suspicious of all of Measuringworth's indicators, and normally keep them at arm's length—in my view they rarely give useful comparisons unless one is prepared to read through masses of qualifying information, which few readers are. What I do, if I am pressed to provide udated values, is to relegate the information to a footnote along the lines: "Measuringworth.com gives several methods for estimating the current values of historic sums. According to their calculations...etc etc".
 * "New housing estates ... were redeveloped in the 1950s and 1960s" Can "new" housing estates be "redeveloped"? Try to avoid the redeveloped/redevelopment repetition later in the paragraph
 * Avoid using "today" as a time indicator. "Today" will become out of date as the article ages.

Obviously this has taken a long time - and I'm less than a quarter of the way through. I can't promise the same degree of attention to the rest, but I'll do more when I can. Brianboulton (talk) 21:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Finetooth comments
I did quite a bit of copyediting, addressing some but not all of the issues mentioned by Brianboulton above, and here are some further things to consider. I may have more later.

Lead
 * The award of feu-ferme status in 1451... " - Clicking the link leads to the "Feu" article, which does not seem to explain "ferme". A reader might guess that it means "firm" or "solid", but that's just a guess. Is it a legal term with special meaning? Might it not be better to briefly explain the term directly in the article with a word or two in parentheses right after the special term?

Medieval history
 * "Kirkcaldy was recognised as a township" - Should "township" be briefly explained? What's the difference between a town and a township in Scotland?


 * "on condition that an annual payment of 33s 4d was made to the Abbot of Dunfermline" - Could this amount also be given in more familiar units? British pounds, maybe?


 * By 1451, Kirkcaldy was awarded feu-ferme status." - Feu-ferme by itself will mean nothing to most readers. Maybe "By 1451, Kirkcaldy was awarded feu-ferme (fixed fee) status."

16th to 18th centuries
 * "the output of linen increased from 177,000 to 316,000 yards (162,000 to 289,000 m)" - I'm not sure how cloth is measured. What is the other dimension? Is the width of these yards of cloth always the same?


 * "The revival of shipbuilding in the late 1770s was significant to the town, when up to 38 vessels were built between 1778 and 1793." - This seems to imply that the ships were built in Kirkcaldy. Is that the case? If so, should "when" be changed to "where"?


 * Please make sure that the existing text includes no copyright violations, plagiarism, or close paraphrasing. For more information on this please see Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches. (This is a general warning given in view of previous problems that have risen over copyvios.) Finetooth (talk) 19:38, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

"16th to 18th centuries" and "16th to 18th centuries" sections
Some issues in these subsections, which I have also copyedited:-
 * "..."for dying and bleaching..." etc. If "dying" is spelt thus in the source, you need to add [sic] to the mis-spelling (should be "dyeing") so readers are aware that it isn't your mistake.  the quote was actually wrong on the article; the source did not mention for dying and bleaching of linen, it was just bleaching of linen.
 * "The town suffered a setback during the political crises of the 17th century." You need to specify the nature of this "setback"; presumably loss of trade was one aspect. It should probably be "setbscks" rather than "a setback", but in any event  you need to be a bit more specific.  removed the sentence altogether and decided to add new info here instead
 * "Episcopacy" meand "rule by bishops", so is it necessary to say they opposed bishops and episcopacy?
 * Does 480 men refer to all deaths during the Covenanting Wars, or just deaths from Kirkcaldy? Also, "as many as" is opinionated; just say "about".
 * "A further expansion of the harbour was completed between 1906 and 1908, to meet the demands for both linoleum and coal." This sentence needs to be move to later in the section. It is chronolically misplaced, and you first need to establish that there was a linoleum industry. As to coal, do you mean increased exports of coal, rather than a demand for it?
 * Second paragraph: "the Pathhead"? (just "Pathhead" in previous paragraph)
 * Merge the single-sentence paragraph with another.
 * "Kirkcaldy Harbour, which closed in 1992, is to re-open to cargo ships for the first time in 20 years." You need to reword this: "...is due to reopen in (year)...". When it has reopened you can amend to "reopened in (year)..."
 * The last sentence in the "Modern" section requires a citation.

Brianboulton (talk) 16:34, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Governance section
Again, I've copyedited. Some further issues:-
 * "The Kirkcaldy area also supports three multi-member wards, with eleven councillors sitting on the committee of Fife Council." Not clear what this means. By "the committee of Fife Council" I assume you mean the council itself? "Supports" is not really right, in this context. If the intended meaning is "The Kirkcaldy area sends eleven members, elected from three wards, to Fife Council" then I suggest you amend to something like that.
 * The next sentence also needs a bit of attention. You need to make it clear that you are moving away from local government. Suggest: "Beyond the tiers of local government, the Scottish Parliament is responsible for matters devolved to it by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, such as education, health, and justice".
 * "each of the four burghs being entitled to a vote". Clarify if these means one vote per burgh. That's how it sounds. removed the sentence, though
 * Date the Act of Union, don't make readers use the link
 * You need to distinguish between the Scottish Parliament post-1999 and the Parliament of Scotland pre-1707. The links go to the right places, but at present you are calling each the "Scottish Parliament", which is confusing.
 * Before the sentence beginning "Under the Reform Act of 1832..." you need a linking sentence outling how Kirkcaldy was represented in the UK Parliament between 1707 and 1832
 * I have trimmed the final parts of the section to reduce unnecessary detail, For instance, the details of the seven pan-Scotland MEPS is well beyond the scope of an article about Kirkcaldy.

Brianboulton (talk) 23:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Geography

 * Some of the content seems to be concerned with geology rather than geography. Should this be refelected in the section title?
 * I don't see the needs for the coordinates, and to have them in two versions is confusing.
 * The "Destinations from Kirkcaldy" chart seems a bit gimmicky to me; does it add anything substantial?
 * I'd say "flagstones" rather than "flags", to avoid momentary confusion.
 * You use the word "running" twice in the same line, with different meanings. You could make the first "flowing"
 * High Street plots: I've done a little ce around here, but I became somewhat confused. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "running "back", because "back" is not an identifiable direction. You then deal with the "sea side" of the High Street (what, incidentally, are "beaching grounds"?) before referring to "the plots on the other side..." Are these the "running back" plots? Perhaps some of this confusion arise from your trying to be too detailed; couldn't some of this information could be summarised?
 * I am also confused by "one of the most important of the small closes and wynds which entered the High Street, was the Parish Church of St Bryce (Old Kirk)..." How can a church be one of "the small closes and wynds"?
 * Further ftrivia could go, e.g. "add difficulty to Balwearie Golf Course"
 * "The mill owners in Linktown made use of the burn, before it too flowed into the sea."[59] Th latter part of this sentence seems barely necessary
 * The last two paragraphs are about town planning and development, and shouldn't be in a "Geography" section
 * Final paragraph: I don't understand the rationale for "the creation of a variety of housing types."
 * I got a bit muddled with the various plans. We have, first, "The 1980s Local Plan" - is that it's formal name? If not, it should not be capitalised. Then, "Another local plan, developed in the early 1990s..." Was this a replacement of the 1980s plan, a supplementary plan, or what? Then we have "The Kirkcaldy Area Local Plan, which was adopted in March 2003" and "A Mid-Fife Local Plan, which is to replace the Kirkcaldy Area Local Plan..." What is the provenance of these later plans? Do they supersede the others?

That concludes my comments on this section. I am afraid that it won't be possible for me to continue to review the article in this degree of depth; there just isn't the time. I will read through, and offer a general opinion on, the remaining sections, but won't be able to go into details. I hope that the comments I have provided have been helpful. Brianboulton (talk) 15:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

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