Talk:Kirovabad pogrom/Archive 1

Quote
I removed an irrelevant quote, which had nothing to do with this article. It was about the events in Sumgait, and not Kirovabad. Grandmaster 10:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding adils addition please provide a source, There were no civilian casualties during the incident.  Artaxiad 21:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * you can read chapter 4 of De Waal's book, there is no mention of casualties -- indeed, no civilians died. Unless your can come up with a truly independent source, preferrably citing official statistics, there is no need to remove this important statement. --adil 06:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * In an article from the New York Times, Soviet human rights activist Andrei Sakharov is quoted as saying that more than 130 Armenians died in the pogrom. Prior to this, there were also reports that three Soviet soldiers died and 126 people were injured (though their ethnicities were never ascertained).  I have provided citations for these figures in this article. -- Aivazovsky 03:00, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sakharov lied and admitted that. Also, Malkasian is not third party. Grandmaster 04:55, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sakharov does not use the word lie! He could not have lied since he gave the figure in good faith. Meowy 20:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The source says "while the frightened Azerbaijani minority in Armenia fled eastward into Azerbaijan" --VartanM 05:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * VartanM, can you please explain your revert? Regardless of what that source says there are tons of other sources that say that Azeris fled Armenia because of pogroms and mass killings. Grandmaster 05:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I already explained my revert. Your change wasn't corresponding with what the source said. If there are tons of sources for the so called pogroms, then you should present those sources, instead of misquote scholars. --VartanM 05:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * What Azerbaijani minority did in Armenia is really irrelevant to this article. That info is there because its part of the sentence from the source. Any additional sources will be WP:SOAP --VartanM 05:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If it is irrelevant, then why is it mentioned? That source clearly provides inaccurate info, so it should either be removed or additional sources should be added. Grandmaster 05:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Its mentioned because its part of the sentence and it adds neutrality to the article. How is that inaccurate? are there any Armenians living what is now Ganja? If you know of sources regarding to Kirovabad please provide them. --VartanM 05:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm talking about the part that says Azerbaijanis left Armenia because they were "frightened". That line should be deleted or expanded with additional sources. Richard G. Hovannisian is not the best source to describe what really happened to Azerbaijani people in Armenia. Grandmaster 05:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, I removed it. VartanM 05:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That's alright. Grandmaster 06:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

What is the full source of the quote attributed to "Cullen, p. 70"? Also, I was looking back at previous edits. Why was useful stuff describing the events in Kirovabad in the weeks prior to the pogrom edited out, stuff like the toppling of the statue? Meowy 17:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This article includes plenty of inaccurate info. There were no pogroms in Ganja, Soviet army and local police managed to prevent violence in that city. This is what Russian KGB officers who were involved in these events say:


 * - Признаться, больше опасений было за Кировабад. Но там ситуацию удержали наши солдатики. Бедные, они столько натерпелись! Ведь у них даже бронежилетов не было. В солдат бросали не только камни, но порой и гранаты. И грузовик на них направляли. Вместе с ними толпу останавливали, кстати, и азербайджанцы. Так, начальник горотдела КГБ Азербайджана Рахман Микаилов даже пинками и ударами "уговаривал" земляков не делать глупостей. А его обзывали предателем. Наконец Микаилов поднял гарнизон солдат и, по сути, предотвратил побоище и погромы.


 * Некоторые азербайджанцы, рискуя жизнью, спасали армян и переправляли их в Армению. Был случай, когда машину с армянской семьей остановили разъяренные отморозки. Хотели поджечь ее. Тогда парень азербайджанец сел в машину и сказал, что останется с армянами. Отпустили. И армяне переправляли большое количество азербайджанцев через границу, защищали их от своих же, обезумевших... А в Сумгаите в погромах участвовали не только ярые националисты, но и элементарные бандиты.


 * Let me know if translation is needed. Grandmaster 05:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunatly it is going to be difficult to accept your translations at face value. Someone would need to check them. Slight changes in the meaning of a word could alter the meaning of the translation completely. Earlier your used the word "lie" to describe Sakharov words - yet a crude translation through babelfish makes clear than in his biography he admits to no such thing. What, for example, does your translation "irresponsible person" mean? Anyone Soviet citizen who said anything negative against the Soviet Unuion, whether false or true, would have been described as an "irresponsible person". And it was usual (and, alas, still is usual in Russia) to dismiss racial attacks or ethnic riots as just the work of criminals or (as given in one account of an Azeri mob at Kirovabad) drug addicts. Meowy 17:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I did my best to translate Sakharov, and you can get it translated by someone else. I still think that he was spreading lies, maybe not deliberately, but because he was supplied with false information by certain people. However I did not include my personal opinion in the article, and Sakharov did admit that the information that he used in his public statement about Kirivobad events was false. “Irresponsible person” were the words used by Sakharov, see the full quote below. To be more precise, Sakharov said: “As it turned out later, the reports came from one person, who let’s say was not quite accurate and responsible”. So it’s good that we fixed this part. You can also have the above quote translated, this interview by high ranked KGB officers was given in 2001, and they confirm that the pogroms in Sumgait were prevented by Soviet army and local authorities. They specifically mention the leader of the local KGB, an ethnic Azerbaijani, who mobilized the local military garrison and prevented violence. --Grandmaster 18:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Can I please have a precise source for "Cullen"; if this passage isn't attributed properly, it cant stay! John Vandenberg 06:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This quote was added by the author of this edit: It would be good if he responded and provided the correct reference for the source. Grandmaster 06:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I checked, it turned out that is a banned sock of Artaxiad. Looks like the quote should go. Banned users are not allowed to contribute to Wikipedia.  Grandmaster 06:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for finding that; I've removed the passage. John Vandenberg 07:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

As an aside due to the edit summary by our IP friend 64.40.108.168, being an admin does not preclude me from being an editor in this article. Obviously, until the dust settles I will not use my admin tools on this article. I am not attempting to take sides, but I don't intend to watch useful tidbits of information be the cause of an edit war. My edit tried to restore the information in less words in order to give it less weight. I then subsequently removed a passage because it was without a fully qualified reference. I am glad our IP friend has now provided the full reference, and if our IP friend would like to send me a copy of the complete article I will staunchly defend the inclusion of the quote in this article. John Vandenberg 02:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Our IP friend appears to be banned user Artaxiad, and if it is indeed the case, all his edits should be removed regardless of their actual merit. However, if anyone is willing to take responsibility for his edits, they can remain in the article. Grandmaster 05:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That passage was about events in Baku, and not Ganja. I removed it, if anyone wishes to add it back, please provide a full context of the quote to demonstrate that it is actually about Ganja. Grandmaster 13:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Memoirs
"However later Sakharov admitted in his memoirs that the information about the numbers of Armenian causalities provided by him was unverified and he received it from his wife Yelena Bonner, who had received it from an "irresponsible person". According to Sakharov, dissemination of figures that were not verified was a mistake on his part. "

Please tell me if the source is reliable and quote the Russian translation and put it in English per wiki policy.

Sakharov is not a reliable source, he is known for pro-Armenian bias. However it is even better that he was cited, it illustrates how certain people were disseminating inaccurate information and how trustworthy they were as a source on Armenia - Azerbaijan conflict. This is the quote from Sakharov's memoirs:

''В это время вновь обострились азербайджанско-армянские проблемы. Начались погромы и насилия в Кировабаде. Ситуация там была ужасающей – сотни женщин и детей скрывались в церкви, которую с трудом обороняли солдаты, вооруженные лишь (так писалось в сообщениях) саперными лопатками. Солдатам действительно было трудно, и вели они себя героически. Среди них были погибшие. Вскоре поступили сообщения о большом числе убитых армян. Как потом выяснилось, сообщения поступали от одного человека, не вполне точного и ответственного, скажем так. Но в Москву они поступали уже по разным каналам и выглядели как независимые и достоверные. Люся, поверив этим сообщениям (да и трудно было не поверить), передала по телефону их мне в США, и я использовал сообщенные цифры в телефонограмме Миттерану (он как раз приехал в Москву с официальным визитом, и я звонил ночью во французское посольство) и в публичном заявлении. Это была одна из нескольких допущенных мною в последние годы досадных ошибок. Конечно, не надо было, по крайней мере, использовать конкретные цифры''. Grandmaster 04:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Translation:

''During this time Armenian – Azerbaijani problems aggravated again. Pogroms and violence started in Kirovabad. The situation there was terrible – hundreds of women and children were hiding in a church, which with much difficulty was protected by soldiers, who (as reports claimed) were armed only with mine shovels. Soldiers indeed were having a hard time, and they behaved heroically. There were casualties among them. Soon we received information that a large number of Armenians was killed. As it turned out later, the reports came from one person, who let’s say was not quite accurate and responsible. But they reached Moscow through various channels and appeared to be independent and trustworthy. Lusya, who trusted these reports (and it was hard not to trust them) transmitted them to me in the USA by telephone, and I used the received figures in a telephone message to Mitterrand (he just arrived to Moscow with an official visit, and I called by night to the French embassy) and in a public statement. This was one of the deplorable mistakes that I have made in the recent years. Of course, I should not have at least used the concrete figures''.

As one can see from the above, Sakharov admits that the numbers published by him were inaccurate and came from an unreliable source. Grandmaster 05:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster please comprise instead of edit warring
The sources presented are reliable already. Please do not add absurd things like the event did not occur. Also do not use Russian sources since this is English Wikipedia not Russian, so it cannot be verified and the source is not even reliable. Thank you please comply with these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.114.159.133 (talk) 23:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The rules allow using non-English sources. See: The source that I quoted is the best on the subjest, it is memoirs of Sakharov. No one knows the details better than the person to whom the reference is made. So there's no reason for you removing verifiable info. --Grandmaster 05:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You reworded it alot adding POV. --64.40.108.168 17:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Artaxiad??? sounds like him. VartanM 06:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I already filed a checkuser on him. Grandmaster 06:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Trud. 10 points on Politburo scale
"According to the high ranked KGB officers who were involved in these events, pogroms and violence were prevented due to the efforts of the Soviet army and local authorities, and there were no casualties among the civil population."

May I ask who wrote this? what is the reliability of the reference? thank you.

http://www.trud.ru/trud.php?id=200102010200801 --Namsos (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The quote says it all. It comes from high rank KGB officers, who were directly involved in those events. Grandmaster (talk) 13:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)