Talk:Kirpal Singh/Archive 1

Hinduism
I just read the FAQ on what the Lost bot is doing vis a vis tagging WP Hindusim articles. I think it is safe to remove the Hindusim tag here since Sant Kirpal was not a Hindu (not by a long shot). If someone wants to insist, they can add it in manually. User:Sevadar 23:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I doubt he was a fan of sectarianism either? 90.192.59.252 (talk) 11:26, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Copyright
I took this article in a book which did not show any copyright and had no connection to the Lamblion institute. If there is a copyright on it I was not aware of it. I did not research who was the original writer but was told by others using the same book that they were always happy to be published anywhere.


 * Granted, Lamblion isn't the only site with that text, but it must be established that whomever is the original author has released it under terms compatible with the GFDL license. Just because the book does not say it is copyrighted does not make it free to use. -- Hadal 02:23, 8 May 2004 (UTC)


 * All of Sant Kirpal Singh's published writings are legal for wikipedia, as they are in the public domain. Sevadar Sevadar 00:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sant Kirpal Singh and Copyright
All books and other publication of Sant Kirpal Singh are originally published with no rights reserved because he mentioned that nobody can copyright the Truth since it is for everybody and must be free like the light of sun and the air we breath. There are some commercial editions (e.g. German translations published by Origo Verlag, Swiss) that have a Copyright, but this Copyright is only applicable on just their books, and never on the original (English) source. All books, brochures and other publications by Ruhani Satsang USA should therefore be without Copyright and also all publications by Unity of Man  explicitly mention that there are no rights reserved. So everybody is allowed to freely copy the words of Sant Kirpal without any restriction (except from commercial translations).

Naturally, anybody who follows the spirit of Sant Kirpal Singh will also publish the works of Sant Kirpal Singh with no rights reserved.

At the Ruhani Satsang Website you can find most of Sant Kirpal Singhs publications online, even most of his books.

Related information
To understand more about the terms "Sant" or "competent Master" as well as the criterias how to discriminate a Sant or perfect Master from a so-called (or fake) "master" I would advise to carefully read the book "Godman" by Sant Kirpal Singh available here: or as zipped PDF file here:  as well as the talk "How I met my Master" by Sant Kirpal Singh here:, etc.

May 15, 1974, three month after the World Conference on Unity of Man Sant Kirpal Singh wrote his last circular letter "On the Unity of Man" (available here: and here: ) where he clearly explained his intentions for the future Mission (the "worldwide campaign for Unity of Man"). See also follow up letter of Reno H. Sirrine dated August 20, 1974 (one day before Master left the body) available here:.

To know more about the happenings before and after Sant Kirpal Singh left the body, including the issue of "successors" one should read the report of Dr. Harbhajan Singh (AKA "Bhaji") with the title "Sant Kirpal Singh - His Mission in the Golden Age " here:.

More information on Dr. Harbhajan Singh and his relation with Sant Kirpal Singh can be found in his talk "How we came to Master" here:.

Kind regards

Gerhard Hossinger ( g D0T hossinger ATT gmail D0T com )

--192.121.70.242 17:35, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) + 2006-10-18

While born in the Sikh religion, Sant Kirpal Singh (as all other Saints and competent Masters) never taught any outer religion but only the Universal Teaching which is the essence of all social religions. Naturally, he had respect for all religions and encouraged people to stay in their religion, but live up to the ideal of the religion, to become a true Christion, true Hindu, true Muslim, etc.

We are all human first, and the outer religions are schools of thoughts where the objective is that we practically learn the subject and reach the Ultimate Goal — God. Naturally that school is best which turns out most successful students.

--192.121.70.242 2006-10-18 19:02 MET

successors to Sant Kirpal Singh
so-called successors, real or want-to-be successors to Sant Kirpal Singh are:


 * Darshan Singh Duggal
 * Ajaib Singh
 * Thakur Singh
 * Judith
 * Soami Divanand —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.124.65.183 (talk) 13:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I removed Paul Twitchell because he did not recognize Kirpal Singh as his Master and hence cannot appear among his possible successors.--Alfadrom (msg) 19:15, 29 giu 2012 (CEST)


 * it should be pointed out that Paul Twitchell had Kirpal as his Master and it's Kirpal's teachings that he changed, re-arranged and transformed in another thing... or not? maybe only in Paul Twitchell's page? --GurDass (talk) 05:22, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * American initiate Paul Twitchell had already long disowned Kirpal, deleted Kirpal's name from his books, and styled himself "the Living ECK Master" back in 1965. --Doveofpeace77 (talk) 19:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

After the passing of Kirpal Singh, Reno Sirrine became a Representative of Thakar Singh and ceased to be a director of Ruhani Satsang, USA. --Doveofpeace77 (talk) 10:54, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Walter Baptiste and Bruce K. Avenell have nothing to do with Kirpal Singh succession. --Doveofpeace77 (talk) 12:06, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

We appreciate your kind adjustment in favor of the Founder of School of Spirituality. However the Founder prefer to remain personally apart from the stalls of Wikipedia, as he has humbly done for many years. Also you should please kindly consider that the title of the chapter is "Legacy and succession" not “successors” and that the work of succession may imply an Organization as well and for that also Ruhani Satsang was reinserted. Thank you for your kind understanding. --Yamida12 (talk) 20:52, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't care, Pierfranco Marcenaro was initiated by Kirpal, act as a Master, and so he is a successor. Here we should be neutral, we don't care of his opinion, sorry. This is an enciclopeidia sir. GurDass (talk) 07:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Secession quote
I recently removed a direct quote that does not tell us anything important about Kirpal Singh, but is highly relevant for secession debates. Thus, I consider it WP:COATRACK. I was reverted by. His comment, "Let people know true information and fact !!!" confirms my belief that this quote is being included for WP:SOAPBOX reasons rather than because it is relevant to this article. The conversation further up in this section and the indicates there are secession debates which should be mentioned here. Daask (talk) 14:37, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * 1. It seems you are very interested to publish very specific positive information about Darshan who is biological son of Saint Kirpal Singh.
 * 2. You post information about succession that absolutely does not tell us anything important about Kirpal Singh, but is highly relevant for secession debates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexShabd (talk • contribs) 03:00, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I have no interest in this controversy, except to replace the poor content that existed before. I do not doubt that the section I wrote may be biased. I wrote it closely following the sources I could find, and I do not have sufficient expertise in this area to assess their biases. However, I cannot bear to see content cited in 3 different books replaced by uncited content. You question my neutrality. We don't know each other; we can't trust each other and we shouldn't have to, because we follow WP:V and can check that scholars agree with our claims. On what do you base your claim? Daask (talk) 03:33, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * To other editors: Please review the and consider reverting 's edit. I am reluctant to continue on my own. Daask (talk) 03:33, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I see, you have written many articles on vary different topics. But no one about spirituality or Sant Mat or meditation or karma
 * I see, you have written many articles on vary different topics. But no one about spirituality or Sant Mat or meditation or karma


 * May I ask you a question?
 * Have you ever read any book of Saint Kirpal Singh?
 * Do you follow Surat Shabd Yoga (Sant Mat) teaching?
 * Do you really know Who was Great Master?
 * Have you read all books you mention as source?


 * I guess you are not, that's why it seems to me you do a favor or order to somebody who is interested to promote Darshan Singh and who just shows you what to write. Especially in removing Saint Kirpal Singh's quote regarding his succession, you deleted at your the very first edit. It is very suspicious


 * If you double check all edits and modifications of this page, you'll discover that almost every modification is related to succession section. I’d say there is  fighting.
 * The main reason is that Saint Kirpal Singh didn't name his official successor publicly. So NO Authentic Source to prove True Successor exists.
 * After His passing, many false master appeared. And of course, nobody can prove authentic source
 * That's why there are so many debates and fighting between successors.
 * Finally, one day smart guy deleted all succession section. I absolutely agree with this solution.
 * Later (few years ago) after official Magazine “Sat Sandesh” was published in internet, somebody found this citation. It was made in 1963 year, 11 year before Sant Kirpal Singh death. So He knew that this information was published in Magazine during 11 years till 1974.
 * Please understand that this is only citation about succession made publicly by Sant Kirpal Singh by Himself
 * That’s why this information is VERY IMPORTANT.
 * And this quote was about His biological son Darshan Singh and grandson Rajinder Singh
 * '''There is strict evidence that Darshan Singh was false master, because he died in 1989 just few days before his trip to USA
 * '''If you were familiar with Sant Mat teaching, you'd new that True Masters of God don't do big plans before passing away. They know exact date of their death!!! But Darshan Singh didn’t !!!
 * That is the reason I comment "Lets people know the truth"
 * So Rajinder Singh successed his biological father and is also false master.


 * Rajinder Singh is very active and created big spiritual organization. But this is NOT prove that he is True Master of God and he leads souls back to God.
 * Todays, many authors and so-called religion experts think they know real true information, and just frustrate and confuse people with their smart conclusion in books.
 * No one of respectful experts can provide Auth Source of Authencity of True Master


 * And now you came and started modifying exactly the most sensitive succession section again without fundamental knowledge of this long history, and also misleading people and provide information for future debates
 * If you continue posting such false information, you do very bad things for other people and yourself.
 * That’s is a reason I remove your last edits about successors and return most important Sant Kirpal Singh’s quote. I reaped it is very important quote made by Himself.


 * With all respect and Love to all Editors, People, Spiritual Masters and GOD, AlexShabd


 * You seem to be working hard to discern the truth amidst incompatible claims by many teachers. I'm not really concerned with truth; I'm just trying to summarize the information available from reliable sources. If you feel this information is biased or incomplete, please find other sources to support your claims. Daask (talk) 08:58, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Secession quote again
I once again attempted to remove the quote. I made this edit after reviewing the source more carefully than I had in the past, on the basis of several issues I observed:
 * 1) The source says it is not a direct quote. The source says
 * "Master said (substantially) : "At this time I know of nobody who is competent to take on this work; whether someone comes up in the future is in God's hands." Then He stated most forcefully: "Whoever may come up in the future, I tell you most definitely that he will NOT be a member of my family!" Naturally, I cannot give Master's words verbatim, but I remember the forceful impression they made on me."

I'm reluctant to continue reverting on my own and would appreciate other editors voicing an opinion. Daask (talk) 23:26, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That makes clear that this is a rough approximation of what Kirpal allegedly said rather than an exact quote.
 * 1) The quote was published during an intense succession dispute. Page 27 makes it clear that the author of the article is well aware of this dispute. At the time the article was published, the magazine which published it which was actively campaigning on the topic of the quote. It was edited by Russell Perkins, whose position is described in the article. The claimed event was 11 years before the article was written. I do not find the magazine to be a reliable source on that issue at that time.

Succession September 2017
The debate continues! Recently, there has been an edit war over removal of the succession section. I don't know of general Wikipedia policy on succession content in articles on persons. suggested this content belongs in Sant Mat. I could be persuaded of moving it there, but to be honest, it's hard for me to take seriously an editor who would remove what I consider to be quality content and leave the "DECLARATION OF SANT KIRPAL SINGH CONCERNING HIS SUCCESSOR". I have once again restored the text as I think it best. I would welcome opinions of other editors here. Daask (talk) 08:58, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Daask I agree with Lorasilver that she decided to remove successor section But I don't mind your last edits will remain, except phrase said by Kirpal Sing regarind "DECLARATION OF SANT KIRPAL SINGH CONCERNING HIS SUCCESSOR" As I explained you early, I consider phrase of Sant Kirpal Singh the MOST IMPORTANT information regarding succession we have today. And this taken from authentic source. That is why I return this phrase back. As I can see you are not familiar with this teaching at all. May Thanks - 19 September 2017‎ AlexShabd

This article needs rewrite
This article on Sant Kirpal Singh of Delhi, a 20th-century Indian spiritual leader, should be rewritten properly, re-styled accordingly as an objective article by a well-informed and disinterested scholar. As it is right now, it is almost entirely a copy of a Ruhani Satsang USA brochure or pamphlet. Just the sentence "Further biographical information is available" shows that it is an advertisement, NOT an encyclopedia article. Oliver Puertogallera (talk) 15:59, 28 October 2012 (UTC)


 * you can improve it, but please stop doing modifies that discredit all the successors that YOU personally does not like. I will check this page every day to prevent this. --GurDass (talk) 08:46, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Spiritual
Sant 2405:204:1404:AAB2:0:0:13F8:88B0 (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2022 (UTC)