Talk:Kiryas Joel, New York

Incursion?

Local income stats seem to contradict reality
The article states"the median income for a family is $15,372. Males have a median income of $25,043 versus $16,364 for females"How is this possible? Doesn't a family contain at least one person who is either male or female? How does a family's income get to be lower than that of the people in it? (Please note: I have looked at demographics for other places, including Monsey, New York, Spring Valley, New York, and Brooklyn, New York, and in those cases, the family income is above that of the individuals, as is logical. But I must admit that in the demographics for New Square, New York, family income is below that of the individuals.) --Keeves 02:37, 31 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've been to Kiryas Yoel, and that doesn't sound right. Yodamace1


 * I think you misunderstood me. My question is not about whether the people there make a little money or a lot of money. It is about the definitions of "family" and "males", and how a family can possibly make less money than the members of that family.--Keeves 18:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Its possible because the median simply comes from the mid point (not the average) of all male or female workers - so this doesn't tell us at all about how many people earn this amount. According to the wiki article on median, "To find the median of a finite list of numbers, arrange all the observations from lowest value to highest value and pick the middle one." Thus, a median family income would be lower than the sum of the median male and femal incomes if a significant portion of either sex did not have any income. I don't know for sure, but since this is a more traditional community, it may be that many women are occupied primarily in childrearing and homemaking areas, and are thus not recieving any income.

This is correct. Kiryas Joel, one can assume, has a very high percentage of single-income families. For simplicity, let's say that 100% of the people there are married, and 100% of them are single-income familes. The male median of $25k then translates to a family median of $12.5k in families where the man is the income provider. Likewise, the female median of $16k becomes a family median of $8k in families where the woman is the income provider. So (assuming a 50/50 split of men/women) that leads to a family median income of $10k or so. In reality, not every is married and not every married household is single income, but you can see from the extreme example how it is possible to have a family income lower than any single member (since it is spread out across everyone of working age in the family). 63.73.225.227 (talk) 20:06, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

It is possible ins some circumstances that the "husband" and "wife" are not married under state law but under their religious law. This allows the woman to get a variety of government aid packages as if she is a single mother with children. While I am unaware of the statistics that this happens, it very likely is happening anecdotally. And, yes it would have to be verified. That being said I have seen this kind of scheme utilized in other communities similar to them where the husband is essentially doing a very long PhD in Talmudic studies with little income other than tutoring or teaching akin to a graduate assistant. 216.195.89.58 (talk) 21:03, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * It's possible because some residents of Kiryas Joel pull shenanigans like this to lie about their income and defraud the government: https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/kiryas-joel-snagged-in-welfare-scandal/ (http://archive.ph/bpNOA) --Subject Matter Expert Supreme 01:19, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Bus stop picture
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but there doesn’t seem to be any real Yiddish or Hebrew on the bus stop signs shown on the picture (as its caption describes), apart from the town’s name. Seems to me rather as a phonetic transcription of English in Yiddish.


 * You are correct. I've altered the description accordingly. JoshuaZ 15:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't agree - that sign's in Yiddish; it just so happens that all the words are borrowed from English. Nevertheless I'll leave it to someone else to change it if they agree with me. Bws2002 22:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I'm not sure I know enough Yiddish to make a judgement on the matter, is the modern yiddish for "bus stop" really just "bus stop" transliterated in hebrew? JoshuaZ 22:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, apparently it's bas stap. :-D Tom e rtalk  07:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, JoshuaZ is right in modern Yiddish it's just "bus stop".Neigerig 14:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You apparently failed to understand what I was saying. Oh well.  Tom e rtalk  14:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I get it, Tomer - that's funny, and it also brings up an interesting point. Actually, an alef in this dialect of Yiddish can be any of three sounds: one is 'a,' another is 'u' (like the vowel in 'food', and yet another is 'o,' which is pretty close to the vowel in the English word 'bus.' So I'd transcribe it "bos stap."Bws2002 17:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yiddish is like my 14th language, but I'd be inclined to agree with your transliteration. Tom e rtalk  00:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, in modern Yiddish, at least in the NY-chasidic dialect, it's just "bus stop". Same with "villidz transportation". :

As the original photographer of that sign (as well as the "skyline" shot in the infobox), and one ignorant of the Hebrew alphabet (much less Yiddish) despite my first name, I appreciate having been able to read this discussion, especially since I had boldly gone and cleaned up the cutline first.

I remember a similar anecdote relayed by Isaac Asimov about his father, who could not read the Roman alphabet when he first arrived in this country. But he saw a sign in Yiddish and went to read it. He was, however, mystified by what "Vindehz gefikst" was supposed to mean, and only much later did he learn it was supposed to mean "Windows fixed".

Similarly, Asimov himself (I believe this is all in Asimov's Treasury of Humor) recalls his chagrin at picking up a copy of one of his books in Hebrew for the first time, and seeing that the translator had rendered his first name as a transliteration of "Isaac" instead of using "Yitzhak" (his original given name). Daniel Case 14:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I like both of these Asimov anecdotes very much. The second one is particularly telling, and I understand how it came about - there happens to be a traditional Jewish name Ayzik that sounds identical to the English name Isaac. What most likely happened is that the people involved in publishing the Hebrew translation heard Asimov's first name and assumed that he was Ayzik, not Isaac.Bws2002 23:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Love both of these stories Editor8778 (talk) 22:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Drop shadow
Would anyone mind if I crop out the drop shadow from the image of Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 04:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
 * AGREE. I think it's a good idea, more consistent with encyclopedic style and other portraits throughout Wikipedia. --Lisasmall 20:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Essay moved from article
''Since the enactment of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act of 1996 (Welfare Reform), there has been a federally imposed limit of 24 consecutive months, along with a 60 month lifetime limit, on welfare benefits throughout the United States. It is therefore misleading that the majority of this community, or any other community in the United States, continuesly lives or relies heavily on "government welfare" as such broad ranging welfare benefits are not available in the United States.'' --moved by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

Yes, that limit is only technically imposed, since local social service agencies do continue benefits past those time limits by transferring recipients into different categories of financial assistance. This is provided that the recipient remains in need, has been compliant with work ability assessments (and attempted placements barring religious observance) and is not eligible for federal disability benefits. --24.190.71.206 (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem
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Disproportionate towards the negative
Although I hesitate to add any tags such as or  just yet, I wanted to note here that it seems to me that the bulk of this article reads quite negatively. I think it needs to have more content discussing the town's positive qualities. I'm just not sure how to go about doing this without conversely having it read like a. -- &oelig; &trade; 19:59, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

So, what are the "positive qualities"?

Kiryas Joel is the colony of a religious cult, that uses its political power to extort money from its neighbors to support its existence as an exclusionary religious-ethnic community. How much of a "positive" spin can you put on that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.152.206 (talk) 04:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Dead on. 2600:4040:2788:1500:B1D5:75D1:8605:BC76 (talk) 22:39, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Although I hate intolerance and such, the Hasidics are doing a crazy amount of damage to the Hudson Valley. They evade taxes (hence the 'poorest' community in America, except for the fact that they drive respectable cars, and support 10 children a family), they vote in blocs and take over school and library trustee boards, and they vote down budgets for schools and libraries (look at East Ramapo Central School District). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.236.188 (talk) 04:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with the balance you are looking for. For a community that prides itself on ethical monotheism, the negatives that are happening vis-a-vis fraud, tax evasion, etc. are embarrassing and deserve scrutiny. We are not talking about an Amish community here. We are talking about a community that wants to be left alone, doesn't want to be transparent, harbors deep resentment to other Jews (if they even view them as such), non-Jews in general, calls African-Americans pejoratively shwartzas, and expects to be rewarded with government dollars that typically do not go to the intended places as requested in the grants, etc. They are poor in many cases by choice because they handicap themselves by not allowing themselves a proper high school or college education. The women who have a decent high school education are saddled by raising large families making it extremely challenging to enter the workforce, if at all. If they even speak their mind, they are rewarded by violence, alienation, and/or expulsion. I say this as a criticism because I would hope they make some progress toward modernity. I do not hate them. I want to see them succeed without having to struggle in this manner. And, I do not see this as normal mainstream Judaism. I see it as if their leaders have taken them off the path to suit their economic objectives and power control. The state governments need to help them make reasonable and dignified changes and explain to them that no one is going to let this charade go on. I shudder to think that this passes for religious freedom. Are these people really free or are they shackled? If I have distant cousins that live here, I would hope they find their way out. They are welcome to my home any time. Hopefully, they won't be so judging that they won't see me as a Jew. 216.195.89.58 (talk) 21:14, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I do understand how you can get that impression but the criticisms are all under one section that happens to be at the end which probably leaves a bad taste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.225.33.67 (talk) 23:52, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Law suit
This current law-suit by some residents against the village deserves a mention, if adequate sources can be found. Zerotalk 12:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

strange for me
is someone able to explain why google finds this page with "kehilat moshe" while control-F fails to detect these words (not even searching as keh or ke or mos)? pietro 2A00:1620:C0:64:21C:61FF:FE03:A4C (talk) 15:54, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

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Question
Is there any distinction between Kiryas Joel and Palm Tree? The article calls KJ a village within the town of Palm Tree, but I get the impression that it makes up the entirely of the own, so it's kind of confusing. Carlo (talk) 15:13, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I would explain the distinction as I understand it with a parable of sorts: The village is the cookie and the town is the jar; if the community wishes to expand they would have to enlarge the jar, and possibly also enlarge the cookie with it or add another one to the jar. Hope this helps. StonyBrook (talk) 22:12, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It's exactly like New York County takes up the entirety of Manhattan Editor8778 (talk) 22:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * They are legally classified as "coterminous", which under NY state law lets them have one government for both, and they are allowed to choose that one government to use either village governance procedures or town governance procedures – see this article reporting on that vote. If the Town ever expands by annexation the Village would legally have to expand at the same time. If they didn't do that, they'd lose their legal "coterminous" status, and would be forced to set up two different governments. I doubt they'd want that because for them government is just a means to an end and not really important in itself, so they want to keep their municipal government as small and simple as they can while still meeting their community's needs. The idea of separate town and village governments is to maximise local democracy, but that's not something the KJ community really cares about. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 20:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Palm Tree, New York
redirects here but has substantial text after the #REDIRECT directive. I've reopened the discussion at Talk:Palm Tree, New York. Certes (talk) 13:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Do the Town of Palm Tree and the Village of Kiryas Joel have separate governments? If they have the same government, then I think we call them one coterminous town-village.  I tried to determine this myself, but neither entity has a government website online.Inkan1969 (talk) 14:44, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * They have one and the same government. Although they don't have a website, the Orange County website says as much, see here. Under NY state law, the residents of a coterminous town and village have to vote on whether to adopt a town form of government or a village form of government, and KJ's residents voted for the village form. Obviously that vote only makes sense if there is one government between the two of them. At one point I read an article in one of the local papers (might have been Lohud.com) which reported on this vote, but unfortunately I can't find it anymore. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 20:45, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh I found the article. It wasn't Lohud, it was Times Herald-Record (both Gannett papers, just different Gannett papers). Here it is: "Palm Tree finally getting judges". See in particular the section at the end, "KJ-Palm Tree voters choose village over town". SomethingForDeletion (talk) 20:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

On the name Palm Tree
''The name "Palm Tree" is a calque (translation) of the surname/family name of Joel Teitelbaum. ''

This is incorrect. It's a literal translation Yiddish teytlboym 'date palm' (from Middle High German tahtel 'date' + boum 'tree').

Teitelbaum means Palm Tree. Editor8778 (talk) 22:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Teitelbaum or teytlboym (however we wish to spell it) is the Yiddish word for "date palm" or "palm tree", and also the Rebbe's family name. So it is correct that "Palm Tree" is a calque or loan translation of "Teitelbaum". You seem to be saying that it is a "literal translation", but that's not contradictory to it being a calque or loan translation; as the calque article says, "a calque (/kælk/) or loan translation is a word or phrase borrowed from another language by literal word-for-word or root-for-root translation". So nothing the article says is wrong, I think maybe you are misunderstanding what it says and hence wrongly thinking it incorrect even when it isn't. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 20:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)