Talk:Kissufim massacre

Massacre
I think the term massacre is more descriptive and accurate to what is described in sources. Should reverse the move. Andre🚐 19:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 8 March 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Kissufim massacre → Kissufim attack – The word massacre in no way pops out of the sourcing here, nor is it obviously the most appropriate descriptive language for the event. By the accounts of the somewhat suspect collection of sources here, four security team members and eight soldiers were killed on the defenders' side (so twelve combatants) versus four other residents and six Thai workers (so ten non-combatants) - this gives us a scenario where we have slightly more combatant than non-combatant deaths, making "attack" a more natural description alongside the majoritarian language in sources. In no obviously true sense was this an unchecked slaughter of noncombatants; on the contrary, the combatants were roundly repulsed (no comprehensive numbers on the dead there either, but at least two mentioned in one source). Another alternative would be Battle of Kissufim, because the two-stage fight saw both resistance by the kibbutz security forces and then a battle lasting several hours with the IDF. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This WP article calls it slaughter and rampage, so the name seems appropriate. Alaexis¿question? 17:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I would oppose renaming to Battle of Kissufim, mostly for consistency reasons because on English Wikipedia we call Deir Yassin the Deir Yassin massacre (while I have seen it referred to as the Battle of Deir Yassin by some other sources including the Hebrew Wikipedia… yes I know Deir Yassin had higher casualties). I also oppose recategorizing it as an attack or battle because The Times of Israel lists Kissufim under its list of massacres here, so it is being categorized as a massacre by a Wikipedia acknowledged reliable source.
 * I am not against merging this article into a larger article of Oct 7 massacres. This would be consistent with the Times of Israel source that I linked above. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:56, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose based on the coverage described above FortunateSons (talk) 10:10, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move to kissufim attack
The attack killed 12 soldiers and 10 civilians and there was extensive fighting. This is not Re’im or be’eri, where a large number of civilians were killed with intent. There was extensive fighting and clashes, and military bases captured. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)


 * That's incorrect. the attack was on a civilian Kibbutz, not a military base, and civilians were killed there, with intent. The fact that troops arriving, later, to stop the massacre were also killed does not mitigate the massacre, Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Were the troops killed during the raid or after it? IIRC there is a military base at Kissufim, if I am wrong correct me on both though The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * what difference does it make when the troops were killed? or if there was a military base nearby with the same name? There were civilians intentionally killed at the kibbutz, that's a massacre. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 16:47, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I support taking the massacre name out of the article. There are attacks on Gaza where 100 civilians have been killed, about which editors have said that "massacre" doesn't fit and would be POV. An attack such as this, which killed only two dozen people, mostly military officers, would never merit the name massacre if the sides had been changed. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)