Talk:Kitchen sink realism

List of films/plays in this genre
As some very culturally significant films are in this genre I feel the article would benefit from a list of such films and plays. It would also allow people who are interested in the genre to find and watch examples. Can such a list be added? I can write a short list here for perusal whilst awaiting feedback. Films: Billy Liar, This Sporting Life, Kes, Georgie Girl, Loneliness of the long distance runner. AmyNelson (talk) 19:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Adding the film Sparrers Can't Sing as I believe it fits the genre well, please discuss here if there is disagreement on this. AmyNelson (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:23, 8 April 2012 (UTC).

Merge?
Yes, the two articles are on the same topic. The kitchen sink realism article has a broader scope, since it also mentions plays and novelists. But the core of the kitchen sink movement (arguably) was the TV plays, with their hard-hitting social messages. So I think merging the TV drama article into the broader article is OK.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 18:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. Pepso2 (talk) 05:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Squalor?
Kitchen sink dramas set out to describe ordinary working class experience and the movement was associated with the political left. Bleak it may have been but "squalor" is hardly an appropriate summary


 * I disagree. You object to that word, no doubt, because of its implied moral censure --the adjective squalid-- but squalor is an accurate, indeed vivid, portrayal of the poverty and urban deprivation of working class existence then, and now


 * Nuttyskin (talk) 19:56, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

A Taste of honey
Hi i am sharna hope jefferson i am currently studing a tast of honey a typical kitchen sink drama about the relationship between mother helen and daughter jo. This play was set in the time when being gay was illegal and mixed race couples was strongly frowned upon. the play was set in manchester when helen and jo move into a grubby flat. Jo brings bulbs with her in hope they will grow. This reprsents a "fresh start" but they never grow. I really advise reqding uo on this play if ever you fancy a good kitchen sink drama it is a fantastic play. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.7.37.98 (talk) 19:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Kitchen Sink Drama --- Gcse level
Popular kitchen sink drama's are things like, Eastenders, corrination street or hollyoaks. But what edsactly is a kitchen sink drama? A kitchen sink drama is a play, tv show, film ect that shows real life things/events for example a drink down the local pub or a death in the family. Things that happen to us real people in everyday life, otherwise known as a classic story. Family tensions often come into come into the fore with realistic conflict between husband and wife or mother and child father and child or teens and wider community. The family may also come together against outer forces for example rival familys. e.g the plates and the windas' (david and garry) in coronation street.

Why is it called "kitchen sink"?

s.hope-jefferson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.7.37.98 (talk) 19:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Removed this passage from the article on the basis of original research. Philip Cross (talk) 19:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Mike Leigh
I think it'll be useful to mention Mike Leigh who continued the tradition into the 80s and till nowadays. If anyone finds a reliable source for such statement, of course. Andrey Kartashov (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Do not remove films
Hi, a user named satchet was removing films from the list for no reason, please do not do this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.255.69 (talk) 13:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

French curtains?
Does this mean French windows? Are French curtains a more obscure term for them or is a mistake? 86.176.213.199 (talk) 09:41, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Newly added images
An editor in good faith has added these two images to the top of the article:



In my opinion, they are two random images from two current-day long-running soaps, one of which did not begin airing till 1985, and do not adequately or directly pertain to the subject. I don't personally think they meet WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE and WP:LEADIMAGE. Particularly not since kitchen-sink realism is associated with black-and-white films, not colour television programmes. Also, the first image could be a modern middle-class suburb anywhere, it's neither gritty nor lower-class looking. Thoughts? Softlavender (talk) 03:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree. They seem to be mainly decorative and add little to the article. Betty Logan (talk) 08:47, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not a big deal, but I would agree with their removal. They're not relevant enough to the topic. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The first thing that comes to my mind with regards to this term is the bleakness of something like Cathy Come Home, not Ian Beale's chip van. Get outta my article!  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 14:44, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Softlavender removing vital films from the list!
Georgy Girl is well known as a quintessential kitchen sink film encompassing issues of abortion, illegitimacy, extra marital affairs and unwanted children based in the 1960s. The other films being removed are vital too, such as Sparrows cant sing, it was created specifically as a kitchen sink drama. Please stop removing kitchen sink films and do some research instead. 81.174.255.78 (talk) AmyNelson. —Preceding undated comment added 12:00, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

I have been working on this films list since 2008, (see first comment on this page) films should not be removed without a vote of some sort. 81.174.255.78 (talk) Amy Nelson. —Preceding undated comment added 12:04, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Please provide citations and gain WP:CONSENSUS. Wikipedia works on verifiability and consensus. -- Softlavender (talk) 12:12, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Pop culture references
This section includes some very dubious stuff. For example, the SNL sketch "A Sorry Lot We Are" was a one off Daniel Craig vehicle apparently parodying Eastenders / Coronation Street (not very well). These are current working class soaps without much relevance to the kitchen sink plays and films of the late 50s and early 60s. --Ef80 (talk) 00:06, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I've removed it -- it the entire section has been tagged as uncited for nearly three years. Softlavender (talk) 00:21, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

citation for Georgy Girl being a kitchen sink realism film
can someone add this please as it has been requested - https://www.empireonline.com/movies/georgy-girl/review/ Georgy girl is a well renowned kitchen sink realism film so it deserves to be on the list. thank you.

citation for sparrows cant sing being on the list, as kitchen sink realism https://letterboxd.com/man_out_of_time/film/sparrows-cant-sing/ if these are unacceptable I can find others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cardbottleenvelope (talk • contribs) 21:55, 10 April 2019 (UTC) Cardbottleenvelope (talk) April 2019 —Preceding undated comment added 20:02, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

started a list of plays
I have begun it, and will try to add more, the list should include television plays such as the highly acclaimed cathy come home. I hope everyone is agreeable on this. Cardbottleenvelope (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:14, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Deleted sections
It is not your personal right to delete whole sections of the page with no good reason. If you feel a citation is needed, add a note that a citation is needed, do not simply delete without care. Cardbottleenvelope (talk)
 * Actually,, it is every Wikipedia editor's right to edit pages, including deletions of large sections of text. To be sure, they don't have a right to do so tendentiously, but that has not been done here.  In fact, I quite agree with  that the section, as it exists, is inappropriate.  I won't delete it right now (though I would be within my rights!), but if you want it kept, you should add citations.  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:34, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

It is reasonable to ask for tags to be placed asking for citaton, rather than deleting first. Especially on a fairly short page. I have added citations. Let's see what the next problem will be. Cardbottleenvelope (talk)
 * It is indeed reasonable! But per WP:BURDEN, it's also reasonable to delete such material.  Thank you for adding citations. Dumuzid (talk) 20:45, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * , I would ask that you be a little more careful with your citations. For instance, your citation regarding accents doesn't really support the proposition that cites to it.  Similarly, your first citation to taboo subjects says that Kitchen Sink films "paved the way" for discussion of taboo subjects, not that they got there themselves.  Just some minor tweaking.  Thanks again. Dumuzid (talk) 22:22, 25 May 2019 (UTC)


 * , those sections were still personal essays and Original Research. They were also unencyclopedic in tone, conclusions, spelling, and headers. There may be a kernel of encyclopedia-worthy information in them, but they should not exist as they were. Please find encyclopedic WP:TERTIARY references (i.e. books) for this material and summarize them briefly rather than writing a meandering personal-opinion essay of your own devising. Softlavender (talk) 22:52, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

softlavender, other people do not have to use books as sources on wikipedia, so you are certainly limiting my option there, very unfairly, A short paragraph is not a personal essay, your absurd exaggerations do not help anything. I supplied references as asked, please do not remove the paragraphs again. This is not your personal page, it is for everyone to edit. Try and refrain yourself from making personal attacks. Cardbottleenvelope (talk)

People should remain level headed and not air personal grievances with edits. If references have been provided, as asked for, then the edit should be allowed, or edited in a way which makes it acceptable for everyone. This page is not so unique that books are needed every time for references, please err on the side of reasonableness. Cardbottleenvelope (talk)


 * I've removed the uncited material, wikified the header, and moved the section to a more logical location. Please do not add any uncited personal musings or personal observations/opinions. Softlavender (talk) 23:47, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Wasn't a level headed compromise easy? Cardbottleenvelope (talk)
 * Not to spoil a nice moment of comity, but there are still great swaths that I think should be deleted unless there is attribution to something. We currently have Wikipedia making judgments about Noël Coward's depiction of the working class.  That is not as it should be.  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:01, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Social Realism vs. Socialist Realism
I felt that the mention of Socialist Realism in the following paragraph was irrelevant, but I'm not confident enough about that to remove it. Perhaps somebody with more knowledge about artistic movements than me would be able to decide?

My reasons for thinking this are:
 * Socialist Realism is highly idealised, but kitchen sink dramas attempt to show reality as it truly is.
 * Socialist Realism had a strong connection to state ideology, but kitchen sink dramas were created by an independent artistic movement.
 * Socialist Realism doesn't tend to focus on domestic life (I think).
 * The characters in Socialist Realism are paragons, but the characters in kitchen sink dramas tend to be flawed.
 * It seems to me the topic came to mind for the author because of the similarity in naming between "Social Realism" and "Socialist Realism", but this is just a naming co-incidence with no deeper connection.
 * And possibly because the writers of kitchen sink dramas tended to be "socialist", although I think it was more of a mild "Labour Party / Fabian Society" type of socialism rather than "International Communism" type socialism.

As I say, I'm no art historian, which is why I'm not editing it myself!

''Many artists who subscribed to social realism were painters with socialist political views.[citation needed] While the movement has some commonalities with Socialist Realism, another style of realism which was the "official art" advocated by the governments of the Soviet Union and other Eastern Bloc countries, the two had several differences. While social realism is a broader type of art that realistically depicts subjects of social concern, Socialist realism is characterized by the glorified depiction of socialist values, such as the emancipation of the proletariat, in a realistic manner.'' 82.8.47.57 (talk) 19:44, 27 April 2024 (UTC)