Talk:Kitniyot

Debate on the inclusion of marijuana, rice, etc. in kitniyot
Judah -- it is debateable whether marijuana is kitniyot or not. according to Kashrut.org the ruling goes according to individual minhag (custom). (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1173879182017&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull).

"Of the dozen rabbis whom The Jerusalem Post questioned on this issue, none offered a conclusive statement about how hemp should be classified for Pessah. As Rabbi Daniel Kohn of Bat Ayin explained, the issue ultimately boils down to an individual decision by each rabbi about whether hemp seeds themselves could be considered edible. If a rabbi decides that the seeds are edible, then hemp - and, by extension, marijuana - would not be considered permissible for Pessah.

Israel's Green Leaf Party ("Aleh Yarok") said it was not taking any chances. Following an inquiry by the Post, a spokeswoman for the party said the group was sending out an e-mail to members warning them about hemp's possible kashrut problems.

"We are warning our people not to eat anything with hemp products if they follow the practice of kitniyot on Pessah," said party spokeswoman Michelle Levine. "We are considering announcing a ban on everything containing hemp just to be on the safe side. We are going with the rabbis on this. People should remove all cannabis and hemp from their homes." " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.156.221 (talk) 05:00, 2007 April 5 (UTC)

Danny -- One source I used (http://www.aish.com/holidays/passover/articles/all_about_kitniyot.asp) says rice is not Kitniyot. Is that source just plain incorrect? Or is it more complicated than that--is rice "kind of but not really" kitniyot, or something like that? Since I know absolutely nothing about this, beyond what I wrote in the article, and I assume you do, I'd love to hear what you have to say... -- SJK

Rice is not kitniyot, though halachically it is has most of the same characteristics, and the two are often lumped together. On the other hand, there are some groups that will eat kitniyot but not rice. (It is interesting that one of the examples appearing in the Talmud for the two cooked foods that must appear on the seder plate--now a shank bone and an egg--is rice). Danny
 * Would it be possible for you to include something about this in the article? What are the characteristics it shares with kitniyot? What groups will eat kitniyot but not rice? -- SJK

Does this mean Sephardim can eat corn bread on Passover? -- DRE — Preceding unsigned comment added by DRE (talk • contribs) 03:38, 2004 April 13 (UTC)


 * Depends on each particular Sephardi tradition and on the actual ingredients and method used for baking the corn (maize) bread. In principle, one could make a bread that contains e.g., maize (US-EN “corn”), rice, water, vegetable oil and baking powder and which would be fine from a strict legalistic point of view. In practice, however, those breads usually contain some form of &#7717;amé&#7779; and would therefore be forbidden. Also, even if one manages to make such a bread, many would be likely to avoid eating it since it seems to go against the spirit of the holiday &mdash; and also because of the principle of mar’it ‘ayin... -- Olve 07:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Rice is not kitniyyot, and that status (or lack thereof) does actually have halakhic consequences. There are in fact many Sephardim who have the minhag to permit rice, but not to permit kitniyyot on Pesach. The rice question has its root in an old ma&#7717;loket on whether rice belongs to the five species. (Talmud Babli) The general halakha is that rice is not one of the five species, and that it cannot by itself turn &#7717;amé&#7779; on Pesa&#7717;.


 * A similar question is actually the one of oats, which &mdash; just like rice &mdash; does not have the type of gluten which characterises the five grains that may become &#7717;amé&#7779; (and incidentally also whether most celiacics can eat a grain or not). The grain that was translated as “aveine” (oats) by Rashi was in fact described as characterised by a row-like structure in the Talmud Yerushalmi, and haRambam confirms that the species in question is שׁבולת שׁועל &mdash; “fox barley” &mdash; also known as wild barley or two-rowed barley.


 * Some have also claimed that rye is not of the five species. While this is probably true in the very narrowest perspective, it is clear that rye contains gluten (and may therefore become &#7717;amé&#7779; and that rye is cladistically extremely closely related to wheat. In our times, there is also a hybrid rye-wheat, the so-called triticale grain. -- Olve 04:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

A source I have (one person) suggests to me that the ban on kitniyot is not pan-Ashkenazi, but only on those from certain villages where it is part of their oral tradition. He will be enquiring with his rabbi for citation issues for it. . . --Vidkun 18:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, it is effectively pan-Ashkenazic. If you can cite exceptions that's fine, but it's not really an issue of minhag ha-makom (local custom). JFW | T@lk  19:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

My wife's family, who are Sephardi, maintain the following practical reason why rice was problematic for Ashkenazi: the ships that delivered rice from the East to the West carried flour on the return journey to the East; thus the rice became contaminated with flour dust, whereas in the East no such contamination need occur during transportation. In Iraq the custom was apparently that rice was permitted provided it was hand-sorted to ensure no contamination from any wind-borne grains. My wife's grandmother would apparently spend several weeks meticulously hand picking rice-grains to ensure they had sufficient supplies. Can anyone verify or comment on this explanation ? David Ruben Talk 14:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it really accurate to say that "the vast majority" of Ashkenazim in Israel still refrain from eating kitniyot on Pesach? The majority probably don't care; secular Jews eat whatever they want, and the majority of my friends (including many Ashkenazim who wear kippot and would be considered Orthodox by any standard) eat kitniyot. -- Reuven Lerner — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reuvenmlerner (talk • contribs) 21:10, 2007 April 2 (UTC)

the two rabbis cited in the article are religious zionists. however, probably all haredi rabbis would say it is forbidden to eat kitniyos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.64.143.32 (talk) 03:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

all ashkenazi haredim in the land of israel are still bound by this custom of not eating kitniyos129.64.143.32 (talk) 03:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)jonah


 * I would note that none of the above debate cites any sources. just writing it here doesnt make it so. (the only source cited is a dead link now). Back to Yeshivah, everyone, to learn how to cite chapter and verse in a debate.(mercurywoodrose)76.232.10.255 (talk) 06:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Kitniyos
Since this article is about an Ashkenazi custom, its title should be 'Kitniyos'.--Redaktor 21:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that this article is of moderate importance, not low importance because it pertains to an issue that affects how many Jews practice one of their most important holidays and because this topic is full of misinformation from sources generally considered to be reliable and credible. I also believe that this page needs to be rewritten almost in its entirety as a brief entry with links and bibliographical citations where people can do further research on their own.
 * The most authoritative scholarly piece I know of on this issue is the responsum by the Law Committee of the Rabbinical Assembly of Israel (affiliated with the Masorti movement in Israel which is the counterpart of the Conservative movement in the US). The text of the responsum (in Hebrew) can be found at http://www.responsafortoday.com/vol3/4.htm. The English summary can be found at http://www.responsafortoday.com/engsums/3_4.htm .  Before Rabbinical Assembly of Israel's responsa were published on the web, I provided my own unofficial translation of key parts of this document and posted it at http://home.earthlink.net/~bbenbaruch/qitniyot-kitniyot.htm.
 * This respoonsum contains the results of historical and rabbinic scholarship into the custom of not eating qitniyot/kitniyot including the origins of the custom and many of the ways the custom has evolved over time and been reinterpreted (or, perhaps more precisely, "re-misinterpreted"). (Some of the misinformation discussed in the historical scholarship contained within the responsum is currently on the Wiki page.)  The responsum also contains the RAI's suggestion that the custom be discontinued in Israel -- and the reasons for this suggestion.
 * Others -- myself included -- have called for the abolition of this custom and even for active opposition to the continuation of this custom which we see as both anachronistic and harmful today after the demographic changes in World Jewry that have blurred the former distinctions between Ashkenazi and Sefardi communities. This mahloket or religious dispute is, for many contemporary Jews, more significant than the disputes over which items should be included in the category of kitniyot.  And therefore this dispute should be acknowledged.

Regarding the spelling of the entry: I strongly support maintaining the "standard" spelling of "kitniyot" with the alternative spellings of "qitniyot" and "kitniyos". The commenter suggesting "kitniyos" is correct that many Ashkenazi Jews, who are the ones who observe the custom of not eating kitniyot on Passover, pronounce the word as "kitniyos". But they are not the only Jews for whom this topic is relevant. And, more importantly, I believe it is important for the Wikipedia to recognize that this Ashkenazi pronunciation of Hebrew is not standard Hebrew today. Accommodating alternative pronunciations is wise. Maintaining recognizable standards on the English Wikipedia pages is crucial. Bbenbaruch (talk) 17:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)!
 * Hebrew speaker here. Kitniyos is a failed attempt to use the English plural with an Hebrew word. Unfortunately, the singular of "kitniyos" is not "kitniyo". In Hebrew, the word "kitniyot" means legumes (and not small things, as was erroneously mentioned in the article). The singular form in Hebrew is "kitnit". It's appropriate to keep the word "kitniyot", since it's a concept. 93.173.176.173 (talk) 22:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, some Ashkenazim pronounce ת as /s/ (but תּ, with dagesh, as /t/); see Ashkenazi_Hebrew. This usage predates modern Hebrew, but of course it has diminished under the influence of Modern Hebrew pronunciation. That means kitniyos is a traditional pronunciation in some people's Hebrew. Schoen (talk) 01:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Meaning of term
The article currently states that it means 'legumes', which as far as I can tell is correct. I have removed the word 'literally', as I don't know exactly how the meaning is derived (e.g. it may not be literal when you consider the root). I also added a dictionary source for this.

Barmispain cited this article, which says "literally little things", but that is not a dictionary, and the original literal meaning may not be the current meaning. So I'd prefer to use 'legumes' (as now cited) at least until we can find a contrary dictionary source. Superm401 - Talk 18:15, 31 March 2013 (UTC)