Talk:Kiwi (nickname)

Untitled
Kiwi Polish simply alerted the average Joe to the existence of the New Zealand bird, and the connection more likely ended there. To imagine that "Kiwis" are named for the polish itself, rather than directly for the New Zealand bird (whose image was popularized by the polish), seems just a tad far-fetched. The kiwi is still the only native creature of New Zealand most folks can name. --Wetman 11:35, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Indeed, I think we need some sources on this. older &ne; wiser 13:00, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)


 * Agreed. -Branddobbe 00:39, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Kiwi
Does this article currently cover the idea of the word, Kiwi as belonging to Kiwi's as in Kiwi Advanced Research and Education Network etc? TransControl

Polish
The Kiwi Polish Info here is inaccurate, but I think I know what they're trying to say. Roodog2k
 * thanks for the improvements kind sir! Papeschr 01:43, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * My pleasure! Roodog2k 22:17, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How could our nickname come from a brand of shoe polish? I think it came directly from the name of a bird that used to go to sleep in a satellite dish at about midnight (if you remember the Goodnight Kiwi, then surely you'll remember to consider my point of view,) and had been moved in 1991 from the 20-cent coin to the dollar (personally, I think he's much happier in his new home.) And one more thing, why do you even NEED shoe polish?


 * Also note that Kiwi (shoe polish) is Australian. How about we remove that paragraph, or rephrase it to: "The shoe polish brand "Kiwi" is Australian and has little to do with New Zealand. ? I also agree with the previous message that real Kiwis don't need shoe polish - many of them even run around barefoot all year. -- Yogi de 07:23, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Kiwi (shoe polish) is indeed Australian. It was invented by a Scotsman who lived in Australia and was married to a New Zealander. He called the polish "Kiwi" in homage to his wife. Thus, the polish is named after the people, not the other way round. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 05:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Given the supposed date of invention for Kiwi shoe polish, it would seem likely that the polish was named after the Kiwi bird. Thus I would suggest that the influence of the polish in the adoption of the word Kiwi as a general name for people from New Zealand is worth at least some mention in this article, see also . Ernest the Sheep (talk) 00:53, 1 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Just a note to remind people that there is a world of difference between "polish" and "Polish". BlueRobe (talk) 00:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources needed
We really need sources on this information. When I first made edits to this, I was really green here on Wikipedia. I never liked the whole shoe polish thing in popularizing the name Kiwi to refer to people from new Zealand... it smacks of an Urban Lagend. So, I am adding the tag to the article. Maybe a Kiwi can help us out? :-)

Roodog2k 17:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It hardly seems likely that there's a citation to be found to substantiate the notion that New Zealanders are referred to as Kiwis all over the world. It's pretty anecdotal, but any Kiwi would tell you that it was the case. The prior citation may still be required and may be found with a little digging. Brent Simpson 10:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Just did a quick search and found an official source http://glossary.immigration.govt.nz/Kiwis.htm Colonial from the Middle Island (talk) 10:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Brent Simpson. I'm a Kiwi, and I have no idea how one could prove that New Zealanders are referred to as "Kiwis" all over the world. We certainly refer to ourselves as Kiwis, (although, there are usually a few cantankerous old cranks who dream up some absurd reasons to find any label offensive.) I suspect that this is one of those facts that we all know to be true (through personal anecdotal experience) but cannot readily prove to be true.
 * In a Court of law, the Court may take Judicial notice of a fact, whereby that fact may be "introduced into evidence if the truth of that fact is so notorious or well known that it cannot be refuted." Short of any examples to the contrary, I suggest that this is a case where such an approach is appropriate. BlueRobe (talk) 11:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Centralise/Expand New Zealander Info?
The pakeha page has recently been expanded to include some information about (White) New Zealanders. Given that this section is practically a stub should this info be transferred/expanded upon in this section? It seems to me that aspects such as New Zealand's culture and culturally significant individuals eg Ernest Rutherford, Peter Jackson should be mentioned.

Alternatively is this page intended only as a consideration of the origin and use of the term Kiwi? If so this probably ought to be made clear.Colonial from the Middle Island (talk) 11:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but what about one of each?
What if a New Zealander owned one of the specific birds; do we say "a Kiwi with a kiwi" if we talk about them collectively? :) Shiggity (talk) 22:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 05:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Idea for moving
I was thinking this article could be made much better if wee moved it to New Zealander, so this article could be made comparable to the articles about Welsh people or Israelis, rather than simply focussing on the history of the term. I'd obviously like to sound out people about the idea before I go through the formal business of proposing a move. YeshuaDavid (talk) 17:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Need a kiwi be born in New Zealand?
An editor is changing the article to say that the term applies only to people born in New Zealand. No sources are provided. Is this a perception that others share? My feeling is that the term applies to those who self-identify as New Zealanders, and to those who are perceived to be New Zealanders, and the place of birth is largely irrelevant. If this is a common perception, can sources be found?- gadfium 09:52, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My perception matches yours Gadfium. My parents were born and raised in Canada, but consider themselves "Kiwis" having lived here for 30+ years Lanma726 (talk) 23:07, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have never heard any such rule and am insulted at the suggestion that it cannot be used by people born outside the country. Some of the greatest kiwis weren't born here - from Keisha Castle-Hughes to Mickey Savage, Roger Hall to Joe Rokocoko, Rob Guest to Grant Elliott. FWIW, I am 100% kiwi -and I was born just north of London, though my dad was born in Otago and I have lived more than 75% of my life here. Grutness...wha?  00:09, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's one source: in 2006, the then Minister of Immigration gave a speech in which he said that "one in five Kiwis were born overseas." The article also now implies that all NZ-born people are Kiwis, which has been dubious at least since 2006, when the law was changed so that a child born in New Zealand is an NZ citizen by birth "only if at least one of their parents: is a New Zealand citizen; or is entitled to be in New Zealand indefinitely in terms of the Immigration Act 1987 (ie a residence permit holder or Australian citizen); or is entitled to reside indefinitely in the Cook Islands, Tokelau or Niue" (or if the child would otherwise be stateless). -- Avenue (talk) 11:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's definitely not based on birth alone. For example, among my staff is a Hong Kong born Chinese. She migrated to NZ when she was 4 years old and has a Kiwi accent far stronger than my own despite my NZ birth. She uses and understands Kiwi idiom and cultural referents. She is also a NZ citizen. She also regards herself as a Kiwi. What else is there to say? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 05:27, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that 'kiwiness' is a state of mind rather than an accident of birth. As someone who has lived here since the age of 2 I would be deeply insulted if someone told me I wasn't a Kiwi, and I'm not convinced that someone who was born here but left as a young child would necessarily be one. Basically a Kiwi is someone who self-identifies as a New Zealander. Where you happened to be when you were too young to have a self-identity is irrelevant. --Helenalex (talk) 03:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you were born in NZ and achieved some positive notability then you will always be identified as a Kiwi on Wikipedia, not matter how little time you have in fact spent in NZ. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 21:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Helenalex's sentiment that being a Kiwi is primarily a state of mind. I used to work with an elderly man who immigrated to New Zealand from China, and he one of the most Kiwi New Zealanders I have ever met (strong Kiwi accent, obsessed with cricket and rugby, etc.) I don't care what anyone says, or where he was born, that man is a Kiwi.
 * However, some common sense needs to be used here. I once met a Pom who was calling himself a "Kiwi" 6 months after moving to New Zealand. While I admire his new-found dedication to New Zealand, his claim did raise an eyebrow.
 * I suggest that there is a grey area regarding the identification of Kiwis, regardless of one's self-identification or popular perception, that can never be formally resolved. That said, I do believe that being a Kiwi requires one's self-identification as a Kiwi. This is a necessary condition, albeit not a sufficient condition. BlueRobe (talk) 13:36, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Offensiveness?
Although the majority do not find it offencive, There is a large number of those that do. So I changed the wording a bit.210.185.9.85 (talk) 07:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you give us links to some examples where people object to the term? Ideally, we'd like sources which meet our policy on reliable sources, but it would help us understand your view even if all you have is links to blogs or forums.- gadfium 08:15, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I supose it perhaps clasifys as "personal research" however the fact I am a new zealander born and raised and am offended by it, and the majority of my friends, ofwhich I have a great deal... Makes it a fact that some do find it offensive. The way I have put it in the article I do not see a need for any external citations, If I were to try and say the majority find it offencive, then it would be needed. My personal reason is because I do not like being compared to a helpless endangered animal... some it is a racism thing, Kiwi being a maori name and there being a great deal of Anti-Maori (non-maori ofcourse) New Zealanders... Regardless of the origin of such offence, I feel it inapproprite to simply say it is not concidered offencive210.185.5.82 (talk) 11:09, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Without some sources to the contrary, we can only assume from this that there is a very small number of people who are your friends who don't like this term. Such minority viewpoints are not appropriate for this article. If you can find a newspaper article or similar about people objecting to the term, then we can consider it.- gadfium 18:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * gadfium is completely wrong when he declares that, "minority viewpoints are not appropriate for this article". Contradictory viewpoints that are held by a minority, albeit a significant minority, are the difference between consensus and a qualified generalisation. What is not appropriate for this article is the irrational disdain of an insignificant handful of intolerant crackpots.
 * I have never met, or heard of, any New Zealanders who consider the term "Kiwi" offensive. The label "Pakeha" is considered offensive by some New Zealanders, and would require a caveat to recognise that some New Zealanders consider that word to be offensive, but the label "Kiwi" is not. Aside from a few cantankerous old cranks who live to dream up absurd reasons to be offended by everything and anything, I cannot imagine why any New Zealander would be offended by the label of "Kiwi". BlueRobe (talk) 11:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * You missed a word when you quoted me. I said "Such minority viewpoints...". I am not suggesting that all minority viewpoints be excluded from any article. We appear to be in agreement that in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, this particular minority viewpoint is unworthy of inclusion.- gadfium 20:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Here are several links to examples that explore the aversion to Kiwi as a universally inclusive countrywide self-reference:
 * A journalistic article, |"Don't call me Kiwi—Names matter, so we need to find the right ones.", published in the reputable New Zealand Geographic magazine that explores the cultural and language implications of the "Kiwi" phrase and the relationship to sense of identity in New Zealand.
 * This Reddit discussion, |"What's with the denouncing of the term kiwi amongst the maori?", where a range of viewpoints regarding perception of "Kiwi" as being an offensive term are interrogated, albeit in a very discriminatory manner.
 * This self-published opinion blog, |"Das Kiwitanga", which touches on points mentioned in the previous two links and also explores a wider view of the development of nations in New Zealand and New Zealand statehood. Viltiki813196 (talk) 10:12, 18 October 2021 (UTC+12)

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Merge?
I propose to merge this article into New Zealander. They refer to the same thing. CityOfSails2 (talk) 01:53, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This article is about the nickname. New Zealanders is about the people. There's not much overlap.- gadfium 04:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

"Kiwi (slur)" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Kiwi (slur). The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 6 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 18:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Wrongly presented as an exonym
'"Kiwi" is the nickname used internationally for people from New Zealand, as well as being a relatively common self-reference.'

The order here is misleading. It implies that the term is primarily used by non-New Zealanders, which is highly dubious.. Just like Aussie, it seems to very primarily be an endonym, and merely an occasional exonym. Prinsgezinde (talk) 06:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It originated as a nickname applied to New Zealanders overseas before it was adopted by Kiwis themselves in the later 20th century. I would say that it is used as much by non-New Zealanders as it is used by New Zealanders (not "occasional"). However I don't think there is much research on the topic. I do support your change. -- Hazhk (talk) 18:10, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I recently commented elsewhere about this. A google search (far from ideal, I know) showed that by far the greatest use of the term to refer to New Zealanders was on 'xxxx.co.nz' websites. Although it is of course difficult to undertake a meaningful personal survey, if I think about it, use of the term outside NZ seems to be limited. I wonder if its use was begun, and is still largely restricted to, a small travel orientated group, such as backpackers. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Kiwi versus Kiwis
I recently reverted some changes to the section. Admittedly I was wrong to describe the changes as "tantamount to vandalism", which wasn't assuming WP:GOODFAITH. I apologise for that. However I do maintain that the article ought to describe the practical usage of the term, not inject an editor's opinion about what the correct usage should be. I think the section is lacking sources which actually discuss the usage of the form Kiwi as opposed to Kiwis. We have examples instead, e.g. Kiwibank changing its slogan. --Hazhk (talk) 16:20, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Although describing those edits as vandalism was a bit too strong, I agree with the reasons for your reversals. The word kiwi is an English word (of Maori origin but by now assimilated into English like countless other words). For that reason it follows the rules of English which are that the bird plural has no 's' and the person plural has an 's'. The edits by Viltiki813196 are an unfortunate consequence of the recent trend to stress the use of te reo in New Zealand society. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:23, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

No reference to common misconception?
Should there be a reference to the common misconception in most of the world, particularly Australia, that the Kiwi nickname refers to the Kiwi Fruit and that we associate the fruit's colours of brown and green with New Zealand? I note that a reference in the "see also" section mentions this but perhaps it should be in the article as well? 203.46.132.214 (talk) 05:56, 19 May 2023 (UTC)