Talk:Klaus Barbie

Why did the British and US recruit and help him?
The article first gives a section with details about horrific crimes, but the section following begins with "After the war had ended, he was recruited by the Western Allies". This is not explained either in the article or subsequent wikilinks, or succinctly (and sourced) in the sources, or in this Talk page archive. Can someone help explain this, or is there another article that explains why these Nazis were helped? The Talk archive references a previous article Nazis in the CIA - do any admins have access to that deleted article who could post here the sources within? SamuelRiv (talk) 06:14, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

All right, I found two wikilink subsections that give slightly more background, but it is still insufficient: Ratline controversy and Reinhard_Gehlen. SamuelRiv (talk) 07:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Why?
This article does not say why he was recruited by Western Allies and West Germany after the War. It seems not a little incredible that Western governments would pay a Nazi war criminal. Why didn't they arrest him? 79.97.154.238 (talk) 21:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * After reading extensively on topics like that, having grown up in West-Berlin and then having lots of contacts with artists of East-Block/Russian origin (both post Revolution and post WWII) I would say that the West recruited and used all people who were anti-communist, slightly anti-left or needed the money. The idea for instance that resources ought to be in the hands of a country needed to be fought on all levels. Everyone who was useful was in the game, was used regardless. Think Mobutu in the Congo who replaced Lumumba, The Shah of Iran versus Mossadegh, Pinochet versus Allende and probably others who I do not know. We all applauded it because we equated anything left or half-communist with Stalinism - a very real fear at the time. You could say, a pact with the devil was not rejected. That was the ideological level but on the personal level, people get into this without really wanting to or believing in anything. The novel about Russian Gypsy singer Plevitskaya (LA PLEVITSKAYA) describes this category rather believably. They are all used as long as they are useful, which was rather shameful in Barbie's case, and when the usefulness has ended, their 'protection' ends as well.


 * This was on the wikipedia home page today in 'this day today' : "1983 – The Nazi SS officer Klaus Barbie was arrested in Bolivia, 32 years after the US Army Counterintelligence Corps helped him flee to Argentina." That's not mentioned in the article. Everybody uses everybody. The US probably helped him to go to South America because he'd be 'handy' one day when the lefties there start to get restless. 144.136.192.70 (talk) 06:15, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It was in the article, but it got deleted by someone who called it a "conspiracy theory" and "anti-American propaganda". Too bad the CIA itself acknowledges that US intelligence agents helped Barbie escape Germany. — howcheng  {chat} 08:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Happened to see the docu 'My enemy's enemy' last night which covers all you could ever want to know (or not). 144.136.192.70 (talk) 01:43, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * What isn't mentioned here is that the USSR also used former Nazis in huge numbers, from every skill set: intelligence, basic military skills to build East German army, rocketry, Gestapo & Abwehr, etc.... The ex-Nazis became prizes in the new Cold War. USSR had no moral high ground as they claimed, they just lied more, more & more. The Western Allies failure to do a complete and thorough de-nazification gave the USSR an opening to criticize as they hid their sins. Hesweeney (talk) 06:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The Soviets didn't recruit all-out Nazi war criminals, though. It's understandable that the US did but the USSR wouldn't, if you consider that the Nazis carried a genocidal campaign of total racial extermination against all Slavs, Russians included. Russians were simply considered subhuman to the Nazis, to be either shot or exterminated through labor, much like the Jews. Therefore, it's unlikely the Soviets would have recruited unrepentant Nazis. It's different for the US because they weren't the target of an extermination campaign. 190.194.223.134 (talk) 04:51, 3 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The rescue and use of "former" Nazis by the Allies is well-documented. See Operation Paperclip for the US operation meant to recruit and rescue strategically valuable Nazis (mostly scientists) from the Soviets. These Nazis were useful because of how they could help the US in the Cold War. The operation was codenamed "paperclip" because the people in charge were aware the real identity of the people they were recruiting would be unpalatable to the general population, so they figuratively amended their dossiers by placing a forged identity on top of them "with a paperclip". Do note none of this is a conspiracy theory, and is instead well-documented mainstream history 190.194.223.134 (talk) 04:44, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

This bio of Barbie
This is a general comment: There is little truth or value in this article. So much is totally wrong on the history as well as interpretation of the facts. This article should be deleted in its entirety so it could be replaced with valid information not the rubbish that is here now! It's not possible to correct errors since they appear on nearly every line. Hesweeney (talk) 05:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC) H E Sweeney


 * Could you please give two or three specific examples of something that is totally wrong or misinterpreted in the article? It's the only way we can actually do something about it, because currently all major facts are cited here. SamuelRiv (talk) 14:19, 24 February 2013 (UTC)



Re: Che Guevara > There is no documentation to show Barbie ever talked with the Major Shelton just hear-say. There is NO information that links Barbie to the West German security services except again hear-say. The sources cited for these two pieces of information provide NO real data. Since these are two damning charges they should be backed by real data. Alvaro de Castro can't be considered a source for a data that is remotely reliable, he was a known associate and proxy for Barbie, intimately involved in some of his criminal activities.

The most thorough examination of the US Govt and its connections to Barbie make it clear that the CIC never had any dealings with Barbie after he left Germany. It also covered the rumors of the US Army Intelligence thinking about re-using Barbie in South America, which they did not. The CIA never had anything contact with Barbie. (CIA and CIC are by no means the same or even connected in any manner except they were/are agents of the US Govt.)

Re: Izieu > Barbie didn't just sign off on the deportation of the Jewish orphans but he personally lead the Gestapo/Wehrmacht unit that arrested the children and their adult caregivers. They were sent to Drancy transit camp by him not to Auschwitz. Barbie never sent any Jews directly to the East, always to Drancy. Whenever Jews were arrested in France they were first sent to a transit camp, Drancy was one of many, then were grouped into train loads and sent east to Auschwitz.

Re: Lyon > No mention of the arrests and deportation of the Jewish support group in Lyon

Re: Jean Moulin > Barbie didn't just arrest Moulin but tortured him so severely that he died en-route to Germany after a brief stay in Paris. No useable information was extracted under this torture and the arrest has to be consider a major failure as a result since Moulin was DeGaulle's personal representative in France and had knowledge of the entire underground resistance and all its leaders. No mention of how Moulin was arrested or of how Barbie manipulated French traitors in the Resistance.

Re: WWII > There is no mention of his assaults into the Jura Mountains with the aid of the Wehrmacht combat units and the Luftwaffe to rout out the Maquis and his brutally towards any captured Maquis and civilians. Hundreds died in mass shootings, burned alive in buildings and torture, the area in post-war France was known for the lack of men of marriageable age because of Barbie's murders.

There is no mention of his brutal attacks on the Jews of Amsterdam and the round-ups he managed.

Re: CIC > Barbie was recruited by an ex-Abwehr agent, Kurt Merck, to work for a group he controlled in Southern Germany that worked for the CIC. Barbie was on the run from US and UK security forces, he needed money, protection and living space.

Barbie wasn't housed in a hotel but he and his family were living in several CIC safe houses in Memmingen and Augsburg.

Barbie was briefly held by UK forces but not interrogated and escaped from them.

John McCloy did NOT refuse to extradite Barbie because he was never informed by AMGUS and the CIC where he was. They hid him, administratively and by reducing their contact with him.

There are many other errors.

I will append a list of sources because I do not have them to hand. Hesweeney (talk) 22:39, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Follow Up: Partial list of sources:

Unhealed Wounds, Erna Paris, Methuen Publications, Agincourt, Canada, 1985 Grove Press, New York, 1986

Klaus Barbie, The Butcher of Lyons, Tom Bower, Bookmoat Ltd., London, 1984 Pantheon Books, New York, 1984

Why My Father Died, Annette Kahn, Summit Books, New York, 1991

The Butcher of Lyon, Brendan Murphy, Empire Books, New York, 1983

Klaus Barbie, Ladislas de Hoyos, Editions Robert Laffont S.A., Paris, 1984 English translation, W.H. Allen, London, 1985

Klaus Barbie, Erhard Dabringhaus, Acropolis Books, New York, 1984

Nazi Germany and the Jews: The years of Extermination, Saul Friedlander, Harper-Collins, New York, 2007

Hesweeney (talk) 01:11, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Contradictory information between linked articles
In this article it states that French Justice Minister Robert Badinter’s father died in Auschwitz, while in the article for Robert Badinter it states that his father perished in Sobibor. Can someone with the proper knowledge please clarify this and fix the fact in the article which is incorrect? It seems more likely that that article about Mr. Badinter would have the correct information, but I’m not certain. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryBuff14 (talk • contribs) 23:29, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Repeat call for total erasure!
I'm sorry to see there has been NO to reply to my criticism of this article. This may be the lamest, most incorrect article on Wikipedia I have ever read. Please reply to my "talk" criticisms so a re-write can be done because a line by edit is just a waste of time. Hesweeney (talk) 04:03, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Iron Cross
There is no such Award as the Iron Cross first Class with Swords. There is an Iron Cross First Class and an Iron Corss Second Class. The higherr Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross in some levels has swords. 199.208.239.141 (talk) 12:45, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Timeline 1944-47
These three years are left totally blank. What did he do at the time of the liberation? How did he escape arrest? Valetude (talk) 15:28, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Recent edit
Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "revise infobox; use free image available". --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:40, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Houston Chronicle article: Klaus Barbie
Note: Found article in Houston Chronicle newspaper, May 21, 1972, Page 22 Section 1. Klaus Altmann admitted to heading a special command of the German SS in France during WWII. The news article provides interesting details of this Murderer's life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeSquier (talk • contribs) 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Cocaine trafficking
I came across this while reading an interview with Helen Mirren at Dame Helen: I loved cocaine at parties:

‘But what ended it [cocaine use] for me was when they caught Klaus Barbie, the Butcher of Lyon, in the early ’80s.

‘He was hiding in South America and living off the proceeds of being a cocaine baron.

‘I saw how my little sniff of cocaine at a party had an absolute direct route to this f****** horrible man in South America. And from that day, I never touched cocaine again.’

But the Barbie wikipedia article only touches on his cocaine trafficking:

"The testimony of Italian insurgent Stefano Delle Chiaie before the Italian Parliamentary Commission on Terrorism suggests that Barbie took part in the 'cocaine coup' of Luis García Meza Tejada, when the regime forced its way to power in Bolivia in 1980."

A lot more should probably be said about Barbie's cocaine trafficking. I suspect it has been diluted and washed away because the US employed him and helped him escape to Bolivia; and the West Germans employed him. Barbie's extra curricular activities were tolerated because of his puppet masters - the US and West German governments.

His younger brother
In the documentary "Hotel Terminus" it is said by an elderly German who a neighbor to the Barbie's that his younger brother was "schwachsinnig" (imbecilic or half-witted)...is there any more information on this? (The article only mentions a "chronic illness"). Historian932 (talk) 02:09, 27 March 2021 (UTC)