Talk:Klingon/Archive 1

Star Trek Klingon Academy Cadet Manual
Is citing this really an appropriate thing to be doing? Games are certainly not canon, and their instruction manuals are even less so!

Klingon Relations
The following passage makes little sense -- it is confusing:
 * Later aboard Station Deep Space Nine, Worf engaged in romance with Jadzia Dax, a Trill with deep connections to Klingon society. Their first night of relations produced a surprising number of contusions and broken limbs for Doctor Bashir – until the Klingon woman Lady Grilka arrived, with a very injured Quark in tow. Bashir reportedly did not want to know what had happened.

Did Worf and Dax break Bashir's bones, Quark's, their own? I do not know how this should read -- can someone please fix.

Language
Just changed a few of the incorrectly spelled Klingon words. To make a word plural in tlhIngan Hol the suffix -pu' is added not -al. Also letters are not capitalized in the roman alphabet in tlhIngan Hol, unless they are a letter that is always capitalized like Q (but not q), S, D and H, and the letter combinations of gh, tlh, and ch are treated as one letter. Duj tIvoqtaH!

Blood
Klingon blood appears as pink only in Star Trek VI. As I understand it, the makers of the film changed the red blood to pink to avoid an R rating for the film. In every representation before and since, Klingon blood appears as red, just like human blood. JohnnyB 18:20, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

I had spoken with someone a couple months after the release of Star Trek VI, and like me he also said that the first thing he thought of when seeing the blood was Pepto-Bismol. JesseG 07:21, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

How can the pink/red blood discrepancy be related to the virus? Both Worf (whose red blood we've seen) and the murder victims in ST:TUC (whose pepto-bismol blood is seen) are lumpy-headed. JohnnyB 20:25, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

A theory: The Klingons in Star Trek VI were affected by the virus; the virus changed their blood to the pinkish colour, but medical intervention restored their cranial ridges. Members of Worf's family, on the other hand, have unaffected red blood. Just my theory, of course, in the absense of canon facts... Duomillia 16:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * What if the Klingons were taking a medication that had the side effect of making the blood temporarily appear pink?--RLent 21:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe the official explanation was that the ships atmosphere was slightly different than normal which caused the blood to change color and was one reason the assasins had to wear full body suits.

Cranial ridges
On the section about Klingon biology - The statement, "For a period during the 2260s [during the original Star Trek], Klingons had external features resembling Humans and wore their hair in a more conservative fashion," is not entirely true. No definitive answer has been given in the show as to why the early Klingons didn't have head bumps, etc. During an episode of DS9, Worf mentions that "Klingons don't like to talk about this topic with outsiders". So perhaps someone will incorporate all this into the article.


 * Be bold! --Menchi 22:05 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I'm the one who wrote that statement, and I intended it to respect all viewpoints on the Klingon cranial conundrum. I didn't say all Klingons, and didn't offer any explanation for their appearance. --StAkAr Karnak 29 Nov 2003

Lungs
Extra lung info from ST:VOY episode when B'Elanna wants to make her ¼-Klingon child completely human, and the doctor said that the extra lung could be, if Miral (her future name), ever wants to be a warrior -- which she didn't apparently (finale), and her mother felt that she wouldn't anyway at the time. --Menchi 12:03 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Cultural allusions
I have to take issue with the comparison of the Klingons to the Japanese empire and the Romulans to the Soviet Union. It doesn't track with the history of the show that I've read. In David Gerrold's 1973 book The World of Star Trek (ISBN: 0345234030) several of the alien races and their real-world inspirations were discussed. Roddenbery contributed to it, and it had a lot of behind-the-scenes writer and production info in it.

One of the things that was covered was what the Klingon and Romulans represented. The Klingons were clearly a cold war era reference to the Soviet Union. In the book it was specifically stated that The Federation and The Klingon empire could never go to war, as they both had enough weapons to wipe out the other's civilization. Specifically this was the reason the Organian Peace Treaty was arranged and the two parties were forced to accept in "Errand of Mercy". The Organians even said that one day the two would live in peace and cooperate. By the time of TNG had come to pass... for the most part. In an idealized view one could say that this was an analogy that one day the cold war would end.

As I recall the book said something like the Klingons had "no redeeming social value". "Klingons pick on old ladies. Klingons fart in airlocks." are a couple of lines I remember from the book.

The Romulans were used in the series as a plot device to allow the Federation to have all-out battles with a strong enemy without actually ending civilization. The Romulans were strong enough to be scary, but not strong enough to actually win. They were kind of like a state hostile to the Federation, but not strong enough to do much damage. Much like... North Korea is today.

Cleary an analogy was being made to the Soviet/Chinese support of North Vietnam when Spock points out that "Romulans now using Klingon design" after three "Romulan" D-7 battle cruisers appear in "The Enterprise Incident". As Rodenberry later confessed, this too was a plot device because they couldn't afford any more model construction or matte shots for a new Romulan ship. Since the Warbirds introduced in "Balance of Terror" were only capable of impulse power, a warp-capable Romulan ship would require new models, they decided to fudge it so existing matte shots could be used. --StarGazer9 16:28, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

bat'leth
In reference to the wepons section, shouldn't the proper Klingon spelling of bat'leth be batlh'etlh, which is is tlhIngan Hol for "sword of honor"? thats how my trusty Klingon Dictionary phrases it... [[user:JonMoore|Jon, Conqueror of Men | (Talk!)]] 23:27, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, if you want the tlhIngan Hol spelling, it is betleH. batlh 'etlh is the phrase that betleH is supposed to have 'evolved' from, however it has changed since then. Perhaps a previous ta'Hol, rather than the current one. This can be found in the Klingon Dictionary (Marc Okrand, 1992) addendum (page 181). However, it is listed at 'type of hand weapon', so I understand your confusion. In Klingon for the Galactic Traveller (Marc Okrand, 1997) (page 58) states

Perhaps the single weapon most associated with Klingons is the two-handed sword called the betleH, or bat'leth as it has come to be known in the Federation. ... Kahless created the name betleH, meaning "sword of honor." The word betleH is actually an archaic form. In contemporary Klingon, "sword of honor" would be batlh 'etlh, though this phrase is used almost exclusively as a translation or explanation of the older word, betleH.
 * I hope that this helps some. Bryan Jones

Images
The images Image:Mekleth.jpg and Image:Dktahg.jpg are scans from The Star Trek Encyclopedia, which would appear to violate copyright law. What's the standard procedure for this kind of thing? -Branddobbe 08:53, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * I've moved them to talk, as you see. --  user:zanimum



Bumps Settled...
Well, I got the new bumpless Klingon data in first! Just watched the episode's premier...Kaz 02:56, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Merged content from Arbiter of Succession
Greetings. I merged content from Arbiter of Succession, as per the VfD at Votes for deletion/Arbiter of Succession. I added it as a separate section under "Arbiter of Succession". Please feel free to move or rearrange it as you see fit. --Deathphoenix 02:28, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Is that spelling correct? Arbiter doesn't look right. Sure it isn't "arbitor"? 23skidoo 03:11, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

ranks: Colonel - commodore?
where is a source for the unlikely assumption that Klingon colonels are equivalent to Starfleet commodores -- i don't remember the topic ever being referred to in Star Trek, seems like a pretty odd assumption -- likewise some of the other rank associations, i don't see any reason to doubt that colonel is equivalent to ship captain, commodore is equivalent to brigadier, and full admiral is equivalent to general. == CaptainMike 18:22, 1 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Indeed &#150; and there is to my knowledge not even a word in Klingon the translation of which is colonel in the first place. Add to this, many of the given translations in the table were just plain wrong. I've corrected those and removed the "equivalents" column altogether, until someone produces a credible source for anything in it. --LRC 16:25, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Please see the information posted in Comparative_Ranks_and_Insignia_of_Star_Trek, as it explains the Klingon ranks from the only Paramount-endorsed source found thus far. Also, the source cited there specifically states that mangHom is NOT used as a rank Bryan Jones


 * Someone went in and vandalized some of the Klingon Ranks (I doubt they had "full of turd" or "robin" or "batman"). Cliff Dixon 23:51, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It appears someone has again vandalized the Klingon Ranks; it's unlikely they had such ranks as "CHEESE CAKE", "FART" or "SNOT". I also doubt that Disruptor Pistol (in Klingon Hand Weapons) is "A HAM SANDWITCH", as suggested. I wish I were qualified to correct them, but unfortunately I am not an enthusiast of such scale as to know enough of the Star Trek universe. Best regards for all of the contributors, the article is fine work indeed. --mere user, 30 November 2005

Klingon leadership
Are all the names on the Klingon leadership list canonical? A few of them look kind of dubious. 23skidoo 23:06, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

It looks as if they are: It might be nice to add a reference for each one. What's the best format to do that? -- General Wesc 20:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Molar (TNG episode "Firstborn", "Rightful Heir")
 * Kahless (TNG episode "Rightful Heir", many other episodes)
 * Emperor Reclaw (DS9 episode "You Are Cordially Invited..." established him as 'Leader of the House of Martok's Second Dynasty' (according to Startek.com)
 * "Dark Time" (I'd guess DS9 episode "You Are Cordially Invited...", but I don't know)
 * Emperor Reclaw II (DS9 episode "You Are Cordially Invited..." established Emperor Reclaw II/Karana (posing as Shenara) took the throne (according to Startek.com)
 * Emperor Sompek (Probably DS9 episode "Rules of Engagement" according to Memory Alpha; startrek.com doesn't mention that he was Emperor.)
 * Chancellor M'Rek (ENT episode "The Augments" according to Memory Alpha)
 * Chancellor Gorkon (Star Trek VI)
 * Chancellor Azetbur (Star Trek VI)
 * Chancellor Mow'ga (DS9 episode "Til Death Do Us Part" according to Memory Alpha and startrek.com)
 * Chancellor K'Mpec (TNG episode "Reunion" and others)
 * Chancellor Gowron (TNG episode "Redemption" and others)
 * Emperor Kahless II (TNG episode "Rightful Air" and others)
 * Chancellor Worf (DS9 episode "Tacking Into the Wind)
 * Chancellor Martok (DS9 episode "Tacking Into the Wind and others)

Klingons as Soviets
"Klingon as Soviets" meme is bullshit and must die.

The Federation - Klingon Empire conflict may look like the Cold War, but that's when the analogy ends. The Klingon culture is totally based on the Japanese Samurai and doesn't have even the slightiest similarity to real or imagined Soviets.

Please don't propagate the broken meme. Taw 13:52, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * We know that with the benefit of hindsight and several spinoff series, but in the Original Series the Klingons had very few of these qualities. I think that the Cold War/Soviet Union/"don't trust the bastards an inch" sensibilities that went into the creation of the original Klingons can be mentioned without taking anything away from what we know now. --Ryanmarc 14:21, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not BS because the analogy was made quite clear in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. I believe "Inside Star Trek" by Robert Justman an Herbert Solow also makes this statement however it has been many years since I read that book so the memory may cheat. Can Taw provide a source to prove it's bullshit?23skidoo 15:19, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying that the relations between the TOS Federation and the Klingon Empire aren't Cold War-like, but that's about where the similarities end. The Klingons had no ideology they tried to spread, no party, no cult of leaders, no workers' class, no state atheism, no communist economy (in fact the Federation looks a lot more Socialist than the Klingon Empire), and there was no Solidarity/internal opposition/lost arm race/economic inefficiency (or whichever theory of fall of the USSR you're into) in the fall of the empire, it was just an eco-disaster. On the other hand we have (admittedly to much larger extend in TNG/DS9 than in TOS/movies) a lot of Samurai-like elements. The "Inside Star Trek" book (I haven't read it) doesn't sound like much of a canon, especially since it seems to go totally against the actual series here. Taw 20:15, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's probably safe to assume that most 60s Star Trek fans didn't know any more about the structure of the Soviet Union than they did the Klingon Empire. Both of them were made out to be strong, mysterious, and plain and simply the "bad guys".  I'm not a TV writer, but it occurs to me that the more you teach fans about the enemy the more sympathetic the enemy becomes, and the last thing they wanted to do in TOS is humanize (for lack of a better Star Trekish term) the Klingons.  Solow (a vice president at Desilu) and Justman (supervising producer) are in as good a position to describe the Klingon/Soviet analogy in their book as anyone.  I like your revision, so I'll just leave it at that.  --Ryanmarc 23:25, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Klingon-Soviet and Romulan-Chinese meme is not "broken" - just because the Klingons were not communists and the Romulans were not, well whatever, doesn't mean they weren't created to represent two foriegn powers of comparable significance to the Federation as the Soviet Union and China were then to the US. This meme is documented in old TOS literature. It was a very crude analogy but was never meant to be more than a very basic analog to present day (1960's) in a program that was fictional anyway. The Klingons were portrayed as warlike and evil and the Romulans were portrayed as even more alien and believed to be inscrutable, and yet, when explored, much deeper as a culture by the Romulan Commander in "Balance of Terror" and even more so in "The Enterprise Incident".

This is a silly argument, of course the concept of the klingons changed over time as the writers changed, to think otherwise is to commit the infallible author logical fallacy (something absolutely rampant in all of fandom). The original klingons, in look and appearance were almost tottaly different then the stupid next generation and forward ones. Also we need a picture of the original klingons on this page.

Funnily enough, the Klingons-as-Soviets line has been pursued more vigourously in the other significant spin-off from TOS... --Nerroth 23:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, something is not right!
The article states "In 2151, a faction in the Temporal Cold War from the 28th century attempted to alter the timeline by using the Suliban Cabal to incite unrest within the Klingon Empire. This resulted in the first contact between Klingons and Humans."

Well, in the first Enterprise episode, Hoshi (the translator girl) was teaching the Klingon language in South America. So humans must have met Klingons before then to teach the language. Someone who is more expert than I needs to fix this article. Thodin 21:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * If I remember the episode correctly, she wasn't teaching Klingonese, she was teaching some kind of earth language (I don't remember which). I may be mistaken.
 * She is definitely not teaching Klingon, since a few moments later she hears the language for the very first time. 23skidoo 29 June 2005 23:39 (UTC)

Worf : Narenda or Khitomer?
Can someone please confirm if Worf was a surivor of the Attack on Narenda, or was it Khitomer? Duomillia 17:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Khitomer according to just about every Google hit on the subject. Correcting recent edit accordingly. 23skidoo 17:39, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Klingons based upon Sikhs?
I reverted a suspicious addition by an anonymous editor suggesting that the Klingon race is based upon the Sikh religion. I think a hot-button claim like that needs to be sourced. I've never heard of this before - has anyone else? 23skidoo 12:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Nope, when Rodenberry first created Star Trek in the 60s, Sikhs weren't a "problem" at all. IIRC, Klingons were actually based on the Japanese, with their sense of honour and their perceived aggressiveness. Regardless of whether they are based on the Japanese, they are at the very least not based on the Sikhs, so it's safe to revert any edits that say it is. --Deathphoenix 13:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Are the (superficial) similarities between the Klingons and Earth's Vikings coincidental, or intentional? Does anyone know?  Have the show's creators mentioned anything about it?  --Corvun 05:33, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

"I think that problems" have nothink to do with the issue. Sikhs and Samuri were and are the most feared swords man in the world. However, Samuri were very much a reserved sociaty. And there were no accounts of women Samuri. The Sikh warriors are known as the Khalsa. These fearsome warriors were formed when the mohgul hords attacked India. By the time Guru Gobind singh had died, the sikhs had built them selves such a reputation for ferocity and courage, That none dared cross them. The Sikhs, like the Klingons did not fear death. They thought it to be a great Honour to die on the battle field. Many of the Klingon weaponary concurs with that of the Sikhs. Women of the Sikh faith were alowed high rankes in the army just as the Klingon women. The battle accounts of Sikh wars resemble that of klingon encounters. A Sikh empire was not the original intention of Sikhism, But an empire that covered a region known as punjab did occur. This was the birth place of Sikhism. I therfore conclude that Klingons are most defiently based apon Sikhism. Sikhs have a far more fearsome reputation than that of the Samuri, making them the most likly candidate for the formation of the Klingon race. Sikhs are also a very spiritual people as are the Klingons. What are your reasons for thinking they were formed from Samuri? just curious.

Klingon warrior Mabe I am just not understanding this correctly, but I do belive that people tend to make an asumption that a particular,well known race is the true and absolute basis for Klingons. I don't in any way wish to critisize or offend someone, but you desperatly need to look at history before you make "red button claims". Shastar Vidyaa is a martial arts practised by Warriors in India for thousands of years. When the Sikh religion was created, they recived alot of resistance from the mongolian empire. with such a powerful foe on their door step, the Sikhs needed to be strong both physicaly and mentaly. After the fall of the mongol empire from Sikh Punjab and most of India, Sikhs took over vast amounts of lands and formed separet states. They drove the hordes right out of Northwest India. Now before the arrival of the sikh religion, buddism spread from its Indian origin all the way to China and Japan. They also took with them the Art that was to be put into effect by Sikhs against the most deadliest foe the world had ever known. So the origin of Chinese and Japanese martial arts is from India. I also have a slight suspision that you say Klingons are baised on the Japanese because Samuri are ment to be "cool" in the U.S. If this is the case, then I am horrified at your understanding of human history, and how you lack understanding of origin. Muslims are also a good candidate for Klingons also. I am making an "educated" and thourly "reserched" conclusion when I say that Sikhs and Muslims mixed together make the perfect Klingon! I hope I have not offended anyone.

"Prehistory" comments
"Little is known of the Klingons prior to the establishment of the Empire. Klingons being a prideful race with a closed society, they are averse to sharing their secrets. Being violent, belligerent, and anti-intellectual, it is hard to imagine that the Klingons developed their high level of technology and science (including warp drive) by themselves."

In ST:ENT, where we see the "earliest" portrayals of Klingon society, I recall there being some mention of the fact that there were once many more scientists, etc., and that the Klingons had only recently become an almost exclusively warrior-race. Also, in the DS9 ep. in which Warf, Martok, Bashir, and Garek were being held in a Dominion POW camp in the Gamma Quadrant (someone please remind me to start paying more attention to episode names!), I recall Martok speaking of Dr. Bashir in a manner that implied his profession is considered an honorable one among Klingons; specifically, Martok alludes to him being "the healer, who bound the warrior's wounds, so he could fight again!" (paraphrased from memory)

The impression I get from the series, is that while the warrior life-style is romanticized and most Klingon children would probably prefer to be warriors when they grow up, professions that strengthen the Empire and aid warriors in battle are considered honorable. For example, scientists who design better weapons, healers who (as mentioned earlier) bind warriors' wounds so they can fight again, etc. Let's not forget that the Vikings had the same sort of warrior ethic as the Klingons and that their longboats (which were built by boatwrights without the benefit of anything like plans or blueprints) were very advanced watercraft for their time. Obviously, even a warrior-based society is capable of making technological advancements, especially if these advancements improve their prowess as warriors! While I like the paragraph as it stands for the most part, I really think there needs to be some consideration of the facts that (a) Warrior-based societies (both in real life, and the Klingons as they are portrayed on-screen) seem to respect non-warrior professions that improve the warriors' prowess or benefit the warriors in some way, and that warrior-based societies are not in principal resistant to technological advancement for precisely this reason, and (b) we have on-screen evidence that the Klingons were once not quite so exclusively a warrior-based society, and that even in the Next Generation, we got to see at least one Klingon scientist (the ep. with the new shields that could allow a shuttlecraft to enter a star's corona).

Sorry for the gigantic post, but I'm still trying to figure out what the word "brevity" means. --Corvun 05:27, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

Klingon leadership
Unless I'm missing something here, there's 1200 years between the reigns of Kahles and M'Rek, covered by about five rulers. This would mean each ruler would rule over 240 years, assuming their reign starts from birth and ends at death, and they die of old age (something no self-respecting Klingon would ever do!). I don't know specifically, but Klingons don't seem to live that long. &mdash; J I P | Talk 05:49, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

That's true. Dahar Master Kor was nearly 140 years old (assuming relative age to Spock) after the Sword of Kahless adventure with Dax and Worf, and even then he was going fast with memory loss, etc. As far as leadership, there were a few emperors after Kahless, and then the council took over with a chancellor acting as head-of-state/government. It's never specified how many leaders, if any, there were after Sompek and before M'Rek. Ereinion 06:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

quisine
I feel that klingon quisine is extensive enough to split into a new article. (see Ferengi quisine )
 * It was originally its own article, but it got merged to this article. &mdash; J I P  | Talk 17:30, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Article history
Why does the history for this article only begin at November 2005? And why is the first edit a redirect to Angela Merkel (disambiguation)? And why aren't there any deleted edits in this article? &mdash; J I P  | Talk 17:29, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

FASA Klingon religion
The article currently states that FASA fanon is canon regarding Klingon religion, presumably because of mention of the Black Fleet. Though the Black Fleet is mentioned in the Warrior's Anthem, the related comments have NOT been canonized. A similar example might be first mention of Vulcan's Forge in the novels - only the Forge has been admitted into canon, not the entirety of the novel(s).--StAkAr Karnak 12:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Reptillian Roots
I belive it was mentioned either here or at Memory Alpha that the hate that the Klingons have for tribbles is a result of their retillian roots. The Cardassians have very obvious reptillian roots but it doesn't really seem like the Klingons have any reptillian roots at all,they are perfect examples of mammals.
 * The picture toward the top stating "A venom-spitting Klingon atavist" is from a episode where Worf devolves, eventually into a giant lizard. Which pretty much is claiming that Klingons come from reptillian roots canonically. 67.5.157.72 05:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Discommoded
Would people please stop changing the term "discommoded" without having actually watched the episodes? This is undeniably the term that is used throughout TNG. It may not match the dictionary meaning, but that's an issue that needs to be taken up with the writer of "Sins of the Father". It's like changing "transporter" to the more correct "teleporter". 23skidoo 16:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Luxans
I went ahead and added Luxans to the list of races similar to the Klingons. I'm really surprised it wasn't there already, but that a race from a video game, and a race from Lord of the Rings (which is FANTASY, not science fiction) was.Antodav 12:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

other uses of the word
"Klingon" has been used as an unofficial nickname for a microorganism found in Lake Vostok in Antarctica.

Wouldn't this be "Cling-on" and not "Klingon"? 67.5.157.72 05:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Complete Lack of Refs
There is not a single reference in this article, I'm going to add some in the future, but it has to be addressed. Computerjoe 's talk 15:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Honestly, it would be great if articles like this would indicate what information was presented in which episode, movie or whatever. Nareek 04:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Universal Translator
What I don't understand about universal translators is how klingons talk in their language. In Star Trek, The Next Generation, episode 134 (A Matter of Honor) The second officer talks in Klingon, then the Klingon captain tells him to talk in thier language refering to Riker.

In death
In the TNG episode Heart Of Glory, two Klingons die while on the enterprise. Both times, it is said that the bodies are empty shells: ''It is only an empty shell now. Please treat it as such. and They are now only empty shells - dispose of them as you see fit. But in the Deep Space Nine episode The Ship, Worf tells O'Brien When a	warrior dies in battle, his comrades stay with the body to keep away predators. That allows the spirit to leave the body when it is ready for the long journey to Sto'Vo'Kor.'' PrometheusX303 13:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)